[09094920394314]

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism.

Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable?

And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And while neither unions nor companies are perfect, both are at the same time vital to how things work right now and not above criticism. They both are definitely preferable to 1820s style enterprises for example, but worse than the Culture.

[sliverstorm]

Maybe 'not all unions' but several very large unions are responsible for some massive, fundamental problems we have today. E.g., cities are going bankrupt in large part tied to unions. I don't think it counts as FUD; even if 'not all unions', I think we have identified issues with the union structure that no one knows yet how to resolve, that will come back if unions come back.

It's like trying to argue 'not all cops'. Sure, but we still decided body cams were a good idea.

I believe we need to swing back towards unionizing. But I think there are real & legitimate concerns that haven't been fixed & aren't FUD.

[aperetti]

Do we really want to talk about unions bankrupting cities without addressing the corporations? The corps who lobbied for free trade, which opened up the labor market to the world and required Americans to complete with 3rd world level wages?

Then, when Americans did not want to compete with rural Chinese farmers pay, those corporations abandoned the area? Leaving cities with huge infrastructure bills and a large population? None of these issue develop in a vacuum. They are complex.

[srtjstjsj]

> E.g., cities are going bankrupt in large part tied to unions.

That's simply a libertarian + right-wing claim.

[sliverstorm]

How do you interpret cities going bankrupt due to collosal unfunded pension obligations? It takes two to tango- the city is party, but so is the union.

[firstplacelast]

Thanks for this. Every time unions are mentioned people want to turn it into a black/white issue and won't allow for shades of grey.

Unions can be great for workers. They can also fuck up markets and/or workers. What's wrong with taking the good and improving the bad for unions in the 21st century?

That's literally what 99% of the start-ups in Silicon Valley are doing in various verticals.

The black/white thinking when it comes to discussion of unions always feels like people have more of an agenda to push that being interested in any meaningful discussion.

[srtjstjsj]

SV turning everyone into minimum-wage (or less) earning independent contractors, gutting benefits and worker protections, is fucking up workers.

[stale2002]

How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave?

If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

[srtjstjsj]

How about we change the laws so that people who support the US Government are free to pay taxes, and people who DON'T are free to renounce their citizenship but keep their residency and protections?

See the problem?

[c0nducktr]

Nobody's forcing you to work for a union shop. Find a place that isn't unionized if you don't want to be part of a union.

[stale2002]

Instead of doing that I am just going to oppose all unions everywhere and try and prevent them from getting any power at all.

Why? Because as soon as they get a foothold, it is done. Over. Can't get rid of them. There are literally rules where they can fire you for trying to end the union.

If it weren't for attitudes like yours, I wouldn't be opposing unions. But your attitude DOES exist, so my only option is all out war.

Fortunately, the rest of my industry (tech) agrees with me and does not support unions. And fortunately, union support is going down massively all across the US.

[09094920394314]

Posting this here, because I realize this poster is literally spreading FUD: you can not be fired for not joining a union in a unionized shop:

http://gotfired.com/blog/2016/04/can-i-be-fired-for-not-join...

>You are protected by law in all 50 states from being fired from your job for not joining a union. You can be only liable for no more than the requirement to pay either union dues or a reduced amount to work in an agency shop. If you refuse to join the union and refuse to pay the required dues, then you can be fired.

[colejohnson66]

Why are you required to pay the dues if you don’t want the benefits?

[johnvonneumann]

Because it doesn't work like that, you can't deny the benefits, the way they work (in Aus, it will be similar elsewhere) is with EBA (Enterprise Bargaining Agreements). Basically, the union will go into talks with companies, agree on conditions and then they will be spread out as an effective handshake rule across the industry. The union act as mitigators between businesses and workers, which pretty much changes the entire industry. So you can't really opt out. Unless of course you go and work for companies who don't sign the EBA's, and having worked in Construction before, the majority of these companies have malicious reasons for not signing, and you wouldn't want to work for them. I've seen a handful of people try to not pay dues, and it's pretty much always because they just don't want to pay money, whilst still pulling the benefits.

[35bge57dtjku]

You supposedly still get benefits, like wage increases.

[literallycancer]

You are missing the point of unions. They aren't here for software engineers making couple hundred grand a year. They are here so that we don't have people losing limbs at work because the company was too cheap to do safety properly.

You aren't interested in the service, fine. But I'm not sure why you feel like you need to cry about unions when you aren't their target group anyway?

[stale2002]

> You aren't interested in the service, fine.

Not if unions get a foothold in my industry, then it won't be "fine". If that happens then they will be able to implement rules and regulations that force me to join them.

And yes, there ARE movements to get the tech industry unionized (they aren't very popular, Fortunately).

No thanks. I'm a not going to let my industry be ruined like that. I'd rather stop all of that in its tracks by making unions powerless nation wide.

They can't enter my industry and force me to join if they are powerless EVERYWHERE.

Also, if it is seriously "fine" for people who don't want their "services", then how about we implement right to work laws everywhere?

Shouldn't it be "fine" for everyone to not join them if they don't want to?

Fortunately for me, though, unions are continueing to become less powerful. So fortunately, less and less of them will be able to force people to join in the future.

[Daishiman]

You have zero awareness of class struggles or how much of a chump you're being to the owner o capital. And I don't even have a pinch of Marxism in me.

[toomuchtodo]

Free rider problem. Same as “well, if you want government and society, pay taxes. If not, go ahead and opt out.”

Unions are only as good as their governance and oversight. Unions can be good, and work in partnership with management, but it takes time and effort. There is no one click button or app for collective protection of worker rights.

[09094920394314]

> How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave?

>If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

If you can convince enough people, you can? But if people organize against you, be a good loser. Nobody except the very hardcore is saying:

>If private property is so great, then everyone who wants to have it should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to accomodate them

to argue against private property or capitalism. But the same social contract that allows for private property can decide that if you want to have its benefits (e.g. the aforementioned private property) can recognize and protect the hard won rights of unions and workers. Stealing a bit of rhetoric, those who don't like it can go to some warlord ridden backwater, I hear there you are free to not follow any social contract if you are up to it

[stale2002]

And this is why I will never ever support a union in my industry (tech) .

Fortunately, the rest of my industry agrees with me.

And ALSO, fortunately, union support is massively going down all across the US.

It looks like that social contract of yours is changing. Perhaps because of attitudes like yours.

I will not "be a good loser". I will oppose union efforts anywhere and everywhere, no matter what, because any power they get anywhere is a massive risk to me and my industry.

As soon as they get a foothold, they will implement rules that force me and others to join. It is safer to just stop them in their tracks before they can get even close to taking over.

[09094920394314]

What exactly is "my attitude" please?

And good on you, others will either agree or disagree with you. But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join? And with whom would you...organize to stop union efforts?

[stale2002]

The attitude of social contracts and not caring about people's free choice to not join unions. And thinking "oh, don't like unions, tough luck, go find another job or move to another country".

> But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join?

But they ARE allowed to force me to join, under threat of being fired, in some states. So that's why.

If the US had universal right to work laws, where you could not be fired for refusing to join a union, then I wouldnt care and wouldn't bother organizing against unions.

The attitude of "screw you for standing up for your right to not join an organization" is very common among union supporters, which is the reason why I oppose them.

I organize against unions already, by supporting right to work laws, and supporting politicians who do as well, and donating to these efforts.

There are a ton of existing efforts to protect worker's rights of voluntary association, and their right to not join organizations that they don't support.

[09094920394314]

So you want to protect your free choice...by taking way the free choice of others to organize? For fear of something which does not happen because there is already a law against it?

http://gotfired.com/blog/2016/04/can-i-be-fired-for-not-join...

>You are protected by law in all 50 states from being fired from your job for not joining a union. You can be only liable for no more than the requirement to pay either union dues or a reduced amount to work in an agency shop. If you refuse to join the union and refuse to pay the required dues, then you can be fired.