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c0nducktr 3131 days ago

Nobody's forcing you to work for a union shop. Find a place that isn't unionized if you don't want to be part of a union.

Instead of doing that I am just going to oppose all unions everywhere and try and prevent them from getting any power at all.

Why? Because as soon as they get a foothold, it is done. Over. Can't get rid of them. There are literally rules where they can fire you for trying to end the union.

If it weren't for attitudes like yours, I wouldn't be opposing unions. But your attitude DOES exist, so my only option is all out war.

Fortunately, the rest of my industry (tech) agrees with me and does not support unions. And fortunately, union support is going down massively all across the US.

http://gotfired.com/blog/2016/04/can-i-be-fired-for-not-join...

Posting this here, because I realize this poster is literally spreading FUD: you can not be fired for not joining a union in a unionized shop:

>You are protected by law in all 50 states from being fired from your job for not joining a union. You can be only liable for no more than the requirement to pay either union dues or a reduced amount to work in an agency shop. If you refuse to join the union and refuse to pay the required dues, then you can be fired.

colejohnson66 3131 days ago

Why are you required to pay the dues if you don’t want the benefits?

johnvonneumann 3131 days ago

Because it doesn't work like that, you can't deny the benefits, the way they work (in Aus, it will be similar elsewhere) is with EBA (Enterprise Bargaining Agreements). Basically, the union will go into talks with companies, agree on conditions and then they will be spread out as an effective handshake rule across the industry. The union act as mitigators between businesses and workers, which pretty much changes the entire industry. So you can't really opt out. Unless of course you go and work for companies who don't sign the EBA's, and having worked in Construction before, the majority of these companies have malicious reasons for not signing, and you wouldn't want to work for them. I've seen a handful of people try to not pay dues, and it's pretty much always because they just don't want to pay money, whilst still pulling the benefits.

> So you can't really opt out. Unless of course you go and work for companies who don't sign the EBA

Actually there is a better way. The better way is to do everything in your power as a worker and citizen to prevent the union from being formed in the first place. Either at YOUR company, or at any others, even if you don't work there. As well as by pushing for any law that reduces the power of unions.

A union can't force you to pay dues if they are crippled country wide.

And this has been what has been happening in the US for decades, as unions are less powerful than they have ever been.

Don't like that attitude? Well then the pro-union people shouldn't have pushed to require people to pay dues.

The fundamental problem is that the more power that unions get, the more likely they are to invade whatever industry I am in and destroy. I don't ever want to risk THAT.

35bge57dtjku 3131 days ago

You supposedly still get benefits, like wage increases.

literallycancer 3131 days ago

You are missing the point of unions. They aren't here for software engineers making couple hundred grand a year. They are here so that we don't have people losing limbs at work because the company was too cheap to do safety properly.

You aren't interested in the service, fine. But I'm not sure why you feel like you need to cry about unions when you aren't their target group anyway?

> You aren't interested in the service, fine.

Not if unions get a foothold in my industry, then it won't be "fine". If that happens then they will be able to implement rules and regulations that force me to join them.

And yes, there ARE movements to get the tech industry unionized (they aren't very popular, Fortunately).

No thanks. I'm a not going to let my industry be ruined like that. I'd rather stop all of that in its tracks by making unions powerless nation wide.

They can't enter my industry and force me to join if they are powerless EVERYWHERE.

Also, if it is seriously "fine" for people who don't want their "services", then how about we implement right to work laws everywhere?

Shouldn't it be "fine" for everyone to not join them if they don't want to?

Fortunately for me, though, unions are continueing to become less powerful. So fortunately, less and less of them will be able to force people to join in the future.

Daishiman 3130 days ago

You have zero awareness of class struggles or how much of a chump you're being to the owner o capital. And I don't even have a pinch of Marxism in me.

stale2002 3130 days ago

I find it insulting that there are groups out there that demand my aligence, and assert that they are the ones fighting for my own interest.

I can fight for my self better on my own, thank you very much. I do not want an organization, forcing me to join them and forcing me to agree with their opinions "for my own good", because I don't know any better.

I will negotiate, and fight the capitalist class, using the ways that I feel are best, and not through a coercive organization that is only looking out for themselves.

If unions were so great, then they wouldn't need to make everyone join them. They would stand on their own merits. I do not want their "benefits".

And because unions refuse to be voluntary, my only option is supporting the anti-union movements that make them powerless nationwide. They can't force me to join if they are universally powerless.

toomuchtodo 3131 days ago

Free rider problem. Same as “well, if you want government and society, pay taxes. If not, go ahead and opt out.”

Unions are only as good as their governance and oversight. Unions can be good, and work in partnership with management, but it takes time and effort. There is no one click button or app for collective protection of worker rights.

> How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave?

>If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

If you can convince enough people, you can? But if people organize against you, be a good loser. Nobody except the very hardcore is saying:

>If private property is so great, then everyone who wants to have it should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to accomodate them

to argue against private property or capitalism. But the same social contract that allows for private property can decide that if you want to have its benefits (e.g. the aforementioned private property) can recognize and protect the hard won rights of unions and workers. Stealing a bit of rhetoric, those who don't like it can go to some warlord ridden backwater, I hear there you are free to not follow any social contract if you are up to it

And this is why I will never ever support a union in my industry (tech) .

Fortunately, the rest of my industry agrees with me.

And ALSO, fortunately, union support is massively going down all across the US.

It looks like that social contract of yours is changing. Perhaps because of attitudes like yours.

I will not "be a good loser". I will oppose union efforts anywhere and everywhere, no matter what, because any power they get anywhere is a massive risk to me and my industry.

As soon as they get a foothold, they will implement rules that force me and others to join. It is safer to just stop them in their tracks before they can get even close to taking over.

What exactly is "my attitude" please?

And good on you, others will either agree or disagree with you. But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join? And with whom would you...organize to stop union efforts?

The attitude of social contracts and not caring about people's free choice to not join unions. And thinking "oh, don't like unions, tough luck, go find another job or move to another country".

> But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join?

But they ARE allowed to force me to join, under threat of being fired, in some states. So that's why.

If the US had universal right to work laws, where you could not be fired for refusing to join a union, then I wouldnt care and wouldn't bother organizing against unions.

The attitude of "screw you for standing up for your right to not join an organization" is very common among union supporters, which is the reason why I oppose them.

I organize against unions already, by supporting right to work laws, and supporting politicians who do as well, and donating to these efforts.

There are a ton of existing efforts to protect worker's rights of voluntary association, and their right to not join organizations that they don't support.

http://gotfired.com/blog/2016/04/can-i-be-fired-for-not-join...

So you want to protect your free choice...by taking way the free choice of others to organize? For fear of something which does not happen because there is already a law against it?

> So you want to protect your free choice...by taking way the free choice of others to organize

Yes. They want to do it to me, so why wouldn't I do it to them? That just puts me at a disadvantage for following rules that my opponents refuse to follow.

But "taking away their right to organize" is a bit of a stretch.

They should be able to "organize", in the colloquial sense of lobbying, talking to other people, expressing their opinion, and negotiating in groups, all they want in support of their cause.

Freedom of association, as defined in the first amendment of US Constitution, applies to them too.

And in turn, I will "organize" AGAINST their cause, as is also MY right.

Disagreeing with someone, and organizing against them, is not the same as taking away THEIR right to "organize".

And yes, you can be fired, if you refuse to pay the union required fee. That's the same thing as being forced to join. Go get your money from people who chose, of their own free will, to join.