[stale2002]

Instead of doing that I am just going to oppose all unions everywhere and try and prevent them from getting any power at all.

Why? Because as soon as they get a foothold, it is done. Over. Can't get rid of them. There are literally rules where they can fire you for trying to end the union.

If it weren't for attitudes like yours, I wouldn't be opposing unions. But your attitude DOES exist, so my only option is all out war.

Fortunately, the rest of my industry (tech) agrees with me and does not support unions. And fortunately, union support is going down massively all across the US.

[09094920394314]

Posting this here, because I realize this poster is literally spreading FUD: you can not be fired for not joining a union in a unionized shop:

http://gotfired.com/blog/2016/04/can-i-be-fired-for-not-join...

>You are protected by law in all 50 states from being fired from your job for not joining a union. You can be only liable for no more than the requirement to pay either union dues or a reduced amount to work in an agency shop. If you refuse to join the union and refuse to pay the required dues, then you can be fired.

[colejohnson66]

Why are you required to pay the dues if you don’t want the benefits?

[johnvonneumann]

Because it doesn't work like that, you can't deny the benefits, the way they work (in Aus, it will be similar elsewhere) is with EBA (Enterprise Bargaining Agreements). Basically, the union will go into talks with companies, agree on conditions and then they will be spread out as an effective handshake rule across the industry. The union act as mitigators between businesses and workers, which pretty much changes the entire industry. So you can't really opt out. Unless of course you go and work for companies who don't sign the EBA's, and having worked in Construction before, the majority of these companies have malicious reasons for not signing, and you wouldn't want to work for them. I've seen a handful of people try to not pay dues, and it's pretty much always because they just don't want to pay money, whilst still pulling the benefits.

[stale2002]

> So you can't really opt out. Unless of course you go and work for companies who don't sign the EBA

Actually there is a better way. The better way is to do everything in your power as a worker and citizen to prevent the union from being formed in the first place. Either at YOUR company, or at any others, even if you don't work there. As well as by pushing for any law that reduces the power of unions.

A union can't force you to pay dues if they are crippled country wide.

And this has been what has been happening in the US for decades, as unions are less powerful than they have ever been.

Don't like that attitude? Well then the pro-union people shouldn't have pushed to require people to pay dues.

The fundamental problem is that the more power that unions get, the more likely they are to invade whatever industry I am in and destroy. I don't ever want to risk THAT.

[johnvonneumann]

And what incentive do collective groups have to do that? I struggle to understand why people would act against their own self-interests to undermine their own rights and pay. Did you know that global wage growth is being outstripped by inflation?

What good does crippling unions do? You think it's useful for large portions of the community to be on stifled wages and bad working conditions?

Unions are less powerful in the US because the US has a broken system where those with money have more votes than those with less? There is a financial interest in having the "mere peons" on less cash because it results in a better balance sheet situation for executives and share holders, resulting in better EOY dividends and better bonuses.

I support Unions because of people like you, because for some fucking unknown reason, people like you believe that some are entitled to less because they are employed in xxxx profession or don't have xxxx degree.

The fundamental problem is that unions are REQUIRED, if there was a bigger sense of social responsibilty, people would get paid decent living wages and wouldn't be worked in horrendously dangerous conditions dealing with power brokers whose only interest is their own portfolio value.

Please, get away from the trickle down economics bullshit and come back to the real world. How much evidence of corporate malfeasance do you have to see on a daily basis before realising that protecting the rights of the 99% is not only a good economic decision, but also a humane one.

[stale2002]

> And what incentive do collective groups have to do that?

Because we do not want the union "benefits" that aren't really benefits.

We do not want another group controlling our workplace or forcing us into horrible, one size fits all, collective bargaining agreements. We want to be allowed to negotiate for ourselves.

We do not want gigantic barriers to entry, meant only to discriminate against people who couldn't afford to buy a fancy 4 year piece of paper.

We do not want discrimination against young people (ie, seniority pay requirements) forced into our contracts. We want to be judged equally on our own merits.

We do not want to be stuck in an organization that we can basically never get rid of once it is established.

I believe that I am way better off without any union forcing me to join.

And apparently a whole lot of other people ALSO agree with me.

We believe that it is very much in the self interest of workers to prevent unions from destroying our industry with overbearing rules and regulations that prevent us from doing our job.

This is not some rare, weird, opinion that I hold. This is the MAJORITY opinion. Unions are less popular than ever, because we the workers don't want them.

[35bge57dtjku]

You supposedly still get benefits, like wage increases.

[literallycancer]

You are missing the point of unions. They aren't here for software engineers making couple hundred grand a year. They are here so that we don't have people losing limbs at work because the company was too cheap to do safety properly.

You aren't interested in the service, fine. But I'm not sure why you feel like you need to cry about unions when you aren't their target group anyway?

[stale2002]

> You aren't interested in the service, fine.

Not if unions get a foothold in my industry, then it won't be "fine". If that happens then they will be able to implement rules and regulations that force me to join them.

And yes, there ARE movements to get the tech industry unionized (they aren't very popular, Fortunately).

No thanks. I'm a not going to let my industry be ruined like that. I'd rather stop all of that in its tracks by making unions powerless nation wide.

They can't enter my industry and force me to join if they are powerless EVERYWHERE.

Also, if it is seriously "fine" for people who don't want their "services", then how about we implement right to work laws everywhere?

Shouldn't it be "fine" for everyone to not join them if they don't want to?

Fortunately for me, though, unions are continueing to become less powerful. So fortunately, less and less of them will be able to force people to join in the future.

[Daishiman]

You have zero awareness of class struggles or how much of a chump you're being to the owner o capital. And I don't even have a pinch of Marxism in me.

[stale2002]

I find it insulting that there are groups out there that demand my aligence, and assert that they are the ones fighting for my own interest.

I can fight for my self better on my own, thank you very much. I do not want an organization, forcing me to join them and forcing me to agree with their opinions "for my own good", because I don't know any better.

I will negotiate, and fight the capitalist class, using the ways that I feel are best, and not through a coercive organization that is only looking out for themselves.

If unions were so great, then they wouldn't need to make everyone join them. They would stand on their own merits. I do not want their "benefits".

And because unions refuse to be voluntary, my only option is supporting the anti-union movements that make them powerless nationwide. They can't force me to join if they are universally powerless.

[Daishiman]

> I can fight for my self better on my own, thank you very much.

Bullshit you can't. You're at best a gnat against the owners of companies valued at hundreds of millions of dollars.

[stale2002]

Well you, and the pro union people can fight it their way, and I'll fight it mine.

Unfortunately for the pro-union crowd, though, they have forced me to be positioned against them, because they cannot give up on their dumb idea of trying to force everyone who disagrees to join them.

This strategy backfires massively, as the only option it leaves me is to try and make them as powerless as possible because if they are crippled nation wide then they can't force me to join under threat of being fired.

I'd love it if both sides could coexist. But until universal right to work laws exist, that protect workers from being require to join or pay dues, we'll there can be no compromise.