[zdkl]

As a consumer, I have (much) more trust that my interests are advanced by the EU than google.

This is an opinion which I don't feel the need to convert anyone to but I really don't understand the opposite view. Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU?

[tripzilch]

This. Google's data just shows their interests happen to align with "what people usually prefer" this time, but we know that is not what motivates google. Not at all.

They have acted against "what people usually prefer" many, many times before when it was beneficial to their own interests.

Additionally, "what people usually prefer" is completely orthogonal to the EU antitrust ruling, which is about holding companies responsible for the power that comes with market dominance.

Companies don't really have ethics or humanity (the way people do), unless we force them to. "We" in this case refers to the whole of society, including the people making up the company. In particular as companies grow very large, even if the people making up the company are ethical, humane and good, THEY are still tasked to wrangle a wild beast that is mostly just hungry for profits, and try to steer it to do Good and not Bad because it doesn't see there is a difference. But even then, they can use help from the rest of society, and regulations can be part of this help.

[Mahn]

Personally, as an EU citizen, I don't believe that Google is advancing my interests and rights, but I also don't believe that the EU commission dictating what Google can or cannot do based on who is lobbying and how much money is at stake has the consumer's best interests in mind. To me these fines seem motivated by money, not consumer rights.

[refulgentis]

+1. While adding billions to their coffers may not be the motivation, there's a ravenous appetite to figure out how to distribute wealth of this obscenely rich generation of multinationals. This reeks of an ineffectual political institution grasping for one of the few solutions it can implement.

[toomuchtodo]

Would you prefer the EU simply prevent Google from operating in their borders? That's always an option.

It's so refreshing to see checks and balances on US multinationals, and I say that as a US citizen.

[disiplus]

on what is this based. the EU commision distroyed roaming between EU members, and im pretty sure they had all the lobiying from mobile operators to not do it.

[honestoHeminway]

Its called democracy- its when a goverment pushes the interests of its people.

[xpaqui]

That's not what democracy is. Also the EU has been shamed as undemocratic since their representatives are not elected by popular vote. People do vote for who represents them as a country in the EU but I doubt any of them had a choice in the Google fine.

[zdkl]

Uhm... So this is problem in the EU but not the US right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...

[lerpa]

It's actually called authoritarianism - when pushing what government wants violates other people's rights to do business as they please even if it isn't criminal activity.

[lerpa]

People like the guy you replied to would only start to question things, once the EU decides they cannot keep working the way they want to.

They live under some sort of bubble of selfishness, where they believe others have to change in order to do to what is best for them. Guess what, as long as Google is committing no crime, why should them?

[AndrewKemendo]

Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU?

1. Because it's in their long term best interest to have a customer for life (No political cycle) so they are more incentivized than a politician would be to support the interest of the consumer.

2. They have a more insight into user desires and actions on a day to day basis, meaning they can predict and "nudge" users in directions that are mutually beneficial.

[e12e]

Re: 1) You might think that is in Google's best interest - but I'm not sure most previous behavior with handling anything from usenet (Google groups), via the rss reader through any number of other services Google has mismanaged or shut down.

It's in Google's best interest to make money. A large userbase and ubiquitous brand is part of that. User happiness is only one possible means to that end.

Finally, you seem to think that search users are Google's customers - as they don't pay anything to Google, they are a resource, or product - not a customer.

Google search is a loss-leader for Google ads - if there's no competition (say paying for product placement at these other sites) - Google gets a bigger share of the ad revenue.

I don't see what magical mechanism there is that would strongly push Google to care for the Google search users "best interest".

[AndrewKemendo]

Finally, you seem to think that search users are Google's customers - as they don't pay anything to Google, they are a resource, or product - not a customer.

That set of users though is what this whole action from the EU is trying to protect. It's only marginally about the other businesses - the end goal is making sure the population of the EU is benefiting.

To that end I have yet to see where or how Google has proven they have the population's interest at mind than the government itself. Google has a much better track record than any government does at listening to the majority of a population's demands based on their behavior (yes even with the deprecation of groups/reader etc...) and responding with their products.

The EU or any other government does less for the population (relative to capabilities, obviously Google doesn't pave roads yet) than Google.

[e12e]

From the initial complaint:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4780_en.htm

> (...) systematically favouring its own comparison shopping product in its general search results pages. The Commission's preliminary view is that such conduct infringes EU antitrust rules because it stifles competition and harms consumer (...)

> (...) [Google] may therefore artificially divert traffic from rival comparison shopping services and hinder their ability to compete on the market. The Commission is concerned that users do not necessarily see the most relevant results in response to queries - this is to the detriment of consumers, and stifles innovation.

The EU is concerned with regulating the market to favour competition. It's true the underlying implication is that a Free market is a Good market - and so by defending completion it's theorised that the consumer profits. (in my opinion that's a non-seqitor - but that's the principle underlying the EU).

Now you could argue for other models, claiming that the proletariat will be better off - under a strict redistribution model, under an unregulated market, under a monopoly - but don't put EU's cart in front of the horse: it has one principle, a regulated free market.

[AndrewKemendo]

it has one principle, a regulated free market.

And I'm saying that not only does the government have a terrible track record, there is no evidence that this actually makes any difference to competition. All it does is show that the government can throw their "weight" around.

Nothing in the historical record of antitrust should make us confident that the court’s dismemberment of one of the most successful companies in history would increase competition.[1]

[1]https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/if-it-aint-broke-dont-bre...

[e12e]

I'm against a free market precisely because the governments of Europe have a great track record in the periods they've adhered to "true" labour/socialist values. Universal healthcare, universal access to education, help with housing, regulations on the labour market - all things that have greatly improved lives of consumers.

Centralised power generally means a departure from direct democracy, and that's one reason why I'm not a fan of the EU.

For a great view into why a regulated market might just be better than an unregulated one, have read of:

https://www.amazon.com/Gangster-Capitalism-United-Globalizat...

[eveningcoffee]

Google users are not (in most cases) their customers but a product Google sells to their actual customers.

Google long term interest is to increase the margin of their product by increasing their dominance in multiple markets over multiple tiers.

If they do this by using their monopolistic power then they are in violation of the law even when by doing that they provide a service that some of their users see usable.

[dragonwriter]

> Google users are not (in most cases) their customers but a product Google sells to their actual customers.

No, Google users are suppliers of a product (ad views) that Google sells to their customers. But they are suppliers that are paid via in-kind exchange (with Google services) rather than cash, which is exactly equivalent to being customers of Google services that pay with in-kind exchange rather than cash. So, in a very real sense, those users are customers.

[eveningcoffee]

Are chickens in the farm also customers?

[dragonwriter]

> Are chickens in the farm also customers?

Chickens in a farm aren't situated similarly, with respect to the farm, as users are with respect to Google services.

Chickens can't freely choose a different farm, or to use no farm at all.

[eveningcoffee]

So if chickens could choose a farm, they would become customers?

In addition - open air held chickens could run away but they choose not to.

[andybak]

Funny but not profound.

[eveningcoffee]

Analogy is actually much stronger we like to admit.

Even if chickens would have choice, all they can choose from for their actual survival is another chicken farm.

Over time they have downgraded their ability to survive without support of the chicken farm.

Even if they had some money to pay for the entrance into the chicken farm then collecting their eggs would be much more lucrative business.

[aluhut]

Wow. Really sad to read that here but:

1) They are a quasi monopoly. The word you use to describe searching on the internet is "googling". Most of the phones on this planet run on their OS. So please...don't fool yourself.

2) Who's creating those desires? You think that the desire for millions of useless shit products that drive the global market are created by some neccesity deeply in our DNA? Or maybe by your free will? Or is this just the ad-industry stealing the attention from you and fitting you into a pretty tight frame of the optimal customer while preaching to you: "everybody/your idol loves this, you have to love it too".

Prediction in the age of advertising is just like advertising itself. A convenient lie.

[AndrewKemendo]

They are a quasi monopoly.

Ok, and? The idea that monopoly is bad - ipso facto - is silly and monopolistic abuse of consumers is largely theoretical. Governments don't like monopolies because they challenge their power, and don't forget nearly every "bad" monopoly was the result of a government license to monopolize. The whole "Trust Busting" trope that underlies the anti-trust act was not because consumers were being hurt, it was a pissing match between the Government and Northern Securities Company [1]. Milton Friedman covered this well [2]

Who's creating those desires?

Companies, friends, acquaintances, media etc... it's not Google.

Or is this just the ad-industry stealing the attention...

Sure, are we debating the existence of an ad-market or Google? Cause I can assure you an ad market will exist irrespective of whatever Google does.

[1]https://books.google.com/books?id=klEeBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA6#v=onep...

[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdLBzfFGFQU

[aluhut]

> Ok, and? The idea that monopoly is bad - ipso facto - is silly and monopolistic abuse of consumers is largely theoretical.

What?! Monopolies always abuse their power because they can. I live in a country where we still feel the bad influence of a former monopolist ISP (Telecom/T-Online). THEIR influence on the government hurts the customer and even customers of other ISPs. It even hurts the tax payer who may not even have internet because his money may flow into subsidies for them. For example: they recently started eating up net neutrality in Germany. Because they can.

One of the most misused powers of monopolies is dictating a price. Just like we had a few months ago also in Germany with the biggest breweries. Millions of customers have been cheated.

IT IS ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR. They pay for this. How you can tell something like that "silly" is beyond me.

[merpnderp]

You're talking about advertising pushing useless shit on people they wouldn't want? But they don't see the advertising until they've already searched for the item!

That's either some magical advertising that makes people search for things before they've seen it. Or you're wrong.

[thinkfurther]

Or, you know, the intent and nature of most advertising is completely orthogonal to the circumstances and conditions of them appearing, the point stands, and you're not even nearing actually addressing it, just bumping over your own straw man.

And when I google for "an item", like "medium sized dog", for whatever reason that means I already...well, what? Want a dog? Maybe, likely not. Want whatever that particular ad is trying to peddle me with whatever shoddy means and rhetoric, because it might have to do with dogs, or merely claim it does? Nope.

[wbl]

The competition is a click away. Remember AltaVista?

[sgift]

re 2. Or one which only looks mutually beneficial, but only benefits Google in reality.

[AndrewKemendo]

Can you give an unbiased concrete example (eg. tainted baby formula, collapsed bridge, corrupted hard drive from virus) of something that has benefited google to the direct harm of one of it's users?

The biggest argument I've seen is that people don't like that they aggregate the data you give to them.

[RubberShoes]

AMP. This is entirely what the AMP argument has been all about.

[AndrewKemendo]

Really? Nobody benefits from AMP? I mean I get the complaints from developers and publishers, but even on HN I have seen support for AMP.

This goes to the broader point though that Google wants to service the end user better based on their feedback (most sites are too big/load too slowly), so they created something simple that gives end users a faster, better and cheaper (lower mobile data cost) solution.

In fact Google seems to be moving faster here because companies keep creating large websites to serve rich content that users find annoyingly slow.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/11/google-amp-fac...

[eveningcoffee]

>even on HN I have seen support for AMP

There are also many people that actively support Chrome. Does it mean that Chrome dominance is therefore beneficial to the future?

[ferongr]

As a user I like AMP. it loads faster than the normal bloated websites and doesn't freeze my device while megabytes upon megabytes of scripts try to run.

[dontnotice]

It's not about you and who you trust the most, it's about if this makes sense or not. The EU is not infallible, they are subject to political pressures and there have been enough of that in this case that they started asking the wrong questions and reached the inevitable wrong conclusions, which are easy to welcome since they serve their protectionist instincts.

Google is not a utility, it's not the water company nor the electric company, or even your ISP, it's essentially a website one which you are free to use or not and the price of admission and switching and opportunity costs are nil, same as for all competing websites, so dictating what Google's website can display and declaring it's contents illegal and worthy of billion dollar fines makes zero sense.

[stickfigure]

As a consumer, I have (much) more trust that my interests are advanced by the EU than google.

The same people that brought you that idiotic cookies warning?

[AsyncAwait]

Yes, the cookie notices are a bad implementation of a good policy, (informing users that they're being tracked.)

[stickfigure]

No. The cookie notices are the natural consequence of a bad policy driven by a good motivation. Well-meaning but stupid busybodies are cluttering up my world. See also: California prop 65 warnings.

[oh_sigh]

Cookies don't imply tracking - that is just one use of them.

[nicolaslem]

The EU law on cookies is specifically about tracking cookies, not first-party cookies.

See http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm#se...

[mpeg]

And the EU cookie consent law doesn't apply when you're using cookies for most other purposes than tracking.

[vkou]

Do you not think that websites should alert users that they are being tracked?

I suppose the Guardian shouldn't alert people that the NSA listens to their telephone calls, either. (Because every spy agency does it?)

[erk__]

And the same people that are removing it.

[mythz]

Why are you using Google then? Use a Service you can trust or you believe has your best interests at heart.

[watbe]

The answer to your question is given by the EC decision:

> There are also high barriers to entry in these markets, in part because of network effects: the more consumers use a search engine, the more attractive it becomes to advertisers. The profits generated can then be used to attract even more consumers. Similarly, the data a search engine gathers about consumers can in turn be used to improve results.

Simply put, the EC believes that Google is a barrier to any viable competition, so there's no ability to develop a competitive service to Google's own.

[mythz]

Sounds like they're punishing commercial success, i.e. the goals of most public corporations.

Search has been Google's core competency since their inception, they were much smaller than the existing Search engines when they started out but were able to create a better product that users preferred and since that time they've been able to amass a wealth of knowledge, experience and resources. Of course any company is going to have a hard time trying to compete with them now, but I don't see why they need to be punished for executing so well on their core mission.

[tripzilch]

"""Market dominance is, as such, not illegal under EU antitrust rules. However, dominant companies have a special responsibility not to abuse their powerful market position by restricting competition, either in the market where they are dominant or in separate markets."""

It's not about "punishing" but it is about holding dominant companies responsible for handling the great power that comes with this dominance.

Companies don't usually do this by themselves because like you say, their goals are orthogonal to this.

Doesn't mean it's contrary to their goals (which would be "punishing", in a sense), but "commercial success" or profit just isn't a force that drives ethical behaviour and responsibility. It's not. Things would be so much easier if they were.

[zdkl]

Well, I believe the court has considered their position and feels that "punishing" google is not a matter of commercial success but of anti trust law (the "companies don't have inner pressure to be moral" argument). One's opinion as to whether the court is acting in good faith with regards to its mandate is a matter of faith, I'll concede that; I personnaly have more faith in our individual ability to reorient the court/EUs mandate than to exercise pressure on google/corporations who are filling the new power center that comes with the internet and mass information distribution.

[aparvinash]

Important correction its not the court its the commission. It seems similar to prosecutor handing down the sentence and burden of proof hence falls upon the accused

[telcodud]

Step 1: "the more consumers use a search engine" --> presumably because said consumers like the product (search engine)

Step 2: "more attractive to advertisers"

Step 3: "profits generated can then be used to attract even more consumers"

Wait, why were consumers attracted by the product (search engine) in the 1st step, but were convinced by the profits in the 3rd step?

[LanceH]

Because they're a US company, duh.

Just like Toyota in the unintended acceleration problem was quickly found guilty of not being GM or Ford.

[euyyn]

> The profits generated can then be used to attract even more consumers.

Wut?

[oh_sigh]

At the very least you have no requirement to use Google. You don't have that option with the EU if you're in an EU country.

[bigleagueposter]

I have no idea whose bribes control the corrupt EU bureaucracy. At least Google helps me by moving stuff from windows into the browser.

[CamperBob2]

Really? As a consumer, what has the EU done for you lately, compared to what Google and other Internet "monopolies" have done for you?

One monopoly is no more moral than another simply because the first one has guns and the second doesn't.

[siliconviking]

You mean just like they have forced millions of websites to show the "Warning: This site uses cookies" message (which arguably cost a fortune in compliance costs and user annyoance, but made no difference in the end)?

I would encourage a "follow the money" train of thought when thinking about this.

My question then becomes: if this money (the $2.7bn) did not accrue to the EU, or was not levied at all, do you still think the EU would still pursue this as ferociously as it has, just to protect the consumer?

[Toboe]

>You mean just like they have forced millions of websites to show the "Warning: This site uses cookies" message

The websites could have just stopped using tracking cookies.