[AndrewKemendo]

Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU?

1. Because it's in their long term best interest to have a customer for life (No political cycle) so they are more incentivized than a politician would be to support the interest of the consumer.

2. They have a more insight into user desires and actions on a day to day basis, meaning they can predict and "nudge" users in directions that are mutually beneficial.

[e12e]

Re: 1) You might think that is in Google's best interest - but I'm not sure most previous behavior with handling anything from usenet (Google groups), via the rss reader through any number of other services Google has mismanaged or shut down.

It's in Google's best interest to make money. A large userbase and ubiquitous brand is part of that. User happiness is only one possible means to that end.

Finally, you seem to think that search users are Google's customers - as they don't pay anything to Google, they are a resource, or product - not a customer.

Google search is a loss-leader for Google ads - if there's no competition (say paying for product placement at these other sites) - Google gets a bigger share of the ad revenue.

I don't see what magical mechanism there is that would strongly push Google to care for the Google search users "best interest".

[AndrewKemendo]

Finally, you seem to think that search users are Google's customers - as they don't pay anything to Google, they are a resource, or product - not a customer.

That set of users though is what this whole action from the EU is trying to protect. It's only marginally about the other businesses - the end goal is making sure the population of the EU is benefiting.

To that end I have yet to see where or how Google has proven they have the population's interest at mind than the government itself. Google has a much better track record than any government does at listening to the majority of a population's demands based on their behavior (yes even with the deprecation of groups/reader etc...) and responding with their products.

The EU or any other government does less for the population (relative to capabilities, obviously Google doesn't pave roads yet) than Google.

[e12e]

From the initial complaint:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4780_en.htm

> (...) systematically favouring its own comparison shopping product in its general search results pages. The Commission's preliminary view is that such conduct infringes EU antitrust rules because it stifles competition and harms consumer (...)

> (...) [Google] may therefore artificially divert traffic from rival comparison shopping services and hinder their ability to compete on the market. The Commission is concerned that users do not necessarily see the most relevant results in response to queries - this is to the detriment of consumers, and stifles innovation.

The EU is concerned with regulating the market to favour competition. It's true the underlying implication is that a Free market is a Good market - and so by defending completion it's theorised that the consumer profits. (in my opinion that's a non-seqitor - but that's the principle underlying the EU).

Now you could argue for other models, claiming that the proletariat will be better off - under a strict redistribution model, under an unregulated market, under a monopoly - but don't put EU's cart in front of the horse: it has one principle, a regulated free market.

[AndrewKemendo]

it has one principle, a regulated free market.

And I'm saying that not only does the government have a terrible track record, there is no evidence that this actually makes any difference to competition. All it does is show that the government can throw their "weight" around.

Nothing in the historical record of antitrust should make us confident that the court’s dismemberment of one of the most successful companies in history would increase competition.[1]

[1]https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/if-it-aint-broke-dont-bre...

[e12e]

I'm against a free market precisely because the governments of Europe have a great track record in the periods they've adhered to "true" labour/socialist values. Universal healthcare, universal access to education, help with housing, regulations on the labour market - all things that have greatly improved lives of consumers.

Centralised power generally means a departure from direct democracy, and that's one reason why I'm not a fan of the EU.

For a great view into why a regulated market might just be better than an unregulated one, have read of:

https://www.amazon.com/Gangster-Capitalism-United-Globalizat...

[eveningcoffee]

Google users are not (in most cases) their customers but a product Google sells to their actual customers.

Google long term interest is to increase the margin of their product by increasing their dominance in multiple markets over multiple tiers.

If they do this by using their monopolistic power then they are in violation of the law even when by doing that they provide a service that some of their users see usable.

[dragonwriter]

> Google users are not (in most cases) their customers but a product Google sells to their actual customers.

No, Google users are suppliers of a product (ad views) that Google sells to their customers. But they are suppliers that are paid via in-kind exchange (with Google services) rather than cash, which is exactly equivalent to being customers of Google services that pay with in-kind exchange rather than cash. So, in a very real sense, those users are customers.

[eveningcoffee]

Are chickens in the farm also customers?

[dragonwriter]

> Are chickens in the farm also customers?

Chickens in a farm aren't situated similarly, with respect to the farm, as users are with respect to Google services.

Chickens can't freely choose a different farm, or to use no farm at all.

[eveningcoffee]

So if chickens could choose a farm, they would become customers?

In addition - open air held chickens could run away but they choose not to.

[vinceguidry]

Do Google users get slaughtered? I mean, that is why it's undesirable to be a chicken in a chicken farm, right? If it weren't for that, then choosing the farm you are on would be quite the desirable ability.

What if all that happened on chicken farms was one of their feathers got plucked once in awhile?

[andybak]

Funny but not profound.

[eveningcoffee]

Analogy is actually much stronger we like to admit.

Even if chickens would have choice, all they can choose from for their actual survival is another chicken farm.

Over time they have downgraded their ability to survive without support of the chicken farm.

Even if they had some money to pay for the entrance into the chicken farm then collecting their eggs would be much more lucrative business.

[aluhut]

Wow. Really sad to read that here but:

1) They are a quasi monopoly. The word you use to describe searching on the internet is "googling". Most of the phones on this planet run on their OS. So please...don't fool yourself.

2) Who's creating those desires? You think that the desire for millions of useless shit products that drive the global market are created by some neccesity deeply in our DNA? Or maybe by your free will? Or is this just the ad-industry stealing the attention from you and fitting you into a pretty tight frame of the optimal customer while preaching to you: "everybody/your idol loves this, you have to love it too".

Prediction in the age of advertising is just like advertising itself. A convenient lie.

[AndrewKemendo]

They are a quasi monopoly.

Ok, and? The idea that monopoly is bad - ipso facto - is silly and monopolistic abuse of consumers is largely theoretical. Governments don't like monopolies because they challenge their power, and don't forget nearly every "bad" monopoly was the result of a government license to monopolize. The whole "Trust Busting" trope that underlies the anti-trust act was not because consumers were being hurt, it was a pissing match between the Government and Northern Securities Company [1]. Milton Friedman covered this well [2]

Who's creating those desires?

Companies, friends, acquaintances, media etc... it's not Google.

Or is this just the ad-industry stealing the attention...

Sure, are we debating the existence of an ad-market or Google? Cause I can assure you an ad market will exist irrespective of whatever Google does.

[1]https://books.google.com/books?id=klEeBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA6#v=onep...

[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdLBzfFGFQU

[aluhut]

> Ok, and? The idea that monopoly is bad - ipso facto - is silly and monopolistic abuse of consumers is largely theoretical.

What?! Monopolies always abuse their power because they can. I live in a country where we still feel the bad influence of a former monopolist ISP (Telecom/T-Online). THEIR influence on the government hurts the customer and even customers of other ISPs. It even hurts the tax payer who may not even have internet because his money may flow into subsidies for them. For example: they recently started eating up net neutrality in Germany. Because they can.

One of the most misused powers of monopolies is dictating a price. Just like we had a few months ago also in Germany with the biggest breweries. Millions of customers have been cheated.

IT IS ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR. They pay for this. How you can tell something like that "silly" is beyond me.

[merpnderp]

You're talking about advertising pushing useless shit on people they wouldn't want? But they don't see the advertising until they've already searched for the item!

That's either some magical advertising that makes people search for things before they've seen it. Or you're wrong.

[thinkfurther]

Or, you know, the intent and nature of most advertising is completely orthogonal to the circumstances and conditions of them appearing, the point stands, and you're not even nearing actually addressing it, just bumping over your own straw man.

And when I google for "an item", like "medium sized dog", for whatever reason that means I already...well, what? Want a dog? Maybe, likely not. Want whatever that particular ad is trying to peddle me with whatever shoddy means and rhetoric, because it might have to do with dogs, or merely claim it does? Nope.

[wbl]

The competition is a click away. Remember AltaVista?

[sgift]

re 2. Or one which only looks mutually beneficial, but only benefits Google in reality.

[AndrewKemendo]

Can you give an unbiased concrete example (eg. tainted baby formula, collapsed bridge, corrupted hard drive from virus) of something that has benefited google to the direct harm of one of it's users?

The biggest argument I've seen is that people don't like that they aggregate the data you give to them.

[RubberShoes]

AMP. This is entirely what the AMP argument has been all about.

[AndrewKemendo]

Really? Nobody benefits from AMP? I mean I get the complaints from developers and publishers, but even on HN I have seen support for AMP.

This goes to the broader point though that Google wants to service the end user better based on their feedback (most sites are too big/load too slowly), so they created something simple that gives end users a faster, better and cheaper (lower mobile data cost) solution.

In fact Google seems to be moving faster here because companies keep creating large websites to serve rich content that users find annoyingly slow.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/11/google-amp-fac...

[eveningcoffee]

>even on HN I have seen support for AMP

There are also many people that actively support Chrome. Does it mean that Chrome dominance is therefore beneficial to the future?

[ferongr]

As a user I like AMP. it loads faster than the normal bloated websites and doesn't freeze my device while megabytes upon megabytes of scripts try to run.