[Psychthowaway]

As a public figure, it wasn't worth burning my reputation to type this out, but I think that speaks to the state of discourse around mental health today.

The article is uses the word "psychopathology" which is a general term for the study of mental disorders. However I want to talk specifically about Psychopathy as a disorder, because I recently came to understand that I am a psychopath. My guess is that there are probably a bunch of psychopaths reading this too that don't even realize what they are.

I also scored in the "Genius" level on IQ tests in middle school (whatever the hell those are worth), and have made a non-trivial creative dent in the world.

The challenge is that, for the average person, if you hear "psychopath" or "sociopath" all you think is murderers and rapists. While most institutionalized (ie. caught) murderers and rapists do fit that profile, 90% of sociopaths are out there in the world and struggling to fit in. In fact almost half of CEOs would fit the diagnosis: Lack of empathy, remorse or guilt. Because that's all it is, it's not based on behavior (even though that is usually part of a formal diagnosis).

I have gone through my whole life with what in retrospect feels like a handicap that I have to make up for in every way. Not being able to feel empathy, remorse, guilt etc... means that every movie that the whole crowd is in tears at, every funeral of a family member, you are basically saying to yourself "What is with all these emotional people?" When relationships deteriorate because the best way you know how to deal with people is to act like you care, to manipulate them to thinking you care and then when the "mask of sanity" slips temporarily it blows your whole life apart.

Therein lies the rub, cause there is no sympathy there, and you know if you reveal who you are you won't get any breaks, because you are seen as a predator. So you spend your whole life studying people to see how they respond in certain situations so that, like a robot, you can try and emulate them - and because you're so smart you can actually pull it off. Genius level sociopaths/psychopaths look like the best of us because it takes that level of intellect to play a character 24 hours a day without taking a break.

And you don't reveal yourself - because what would the benefit be? You don't get a chance to be yourself because who you are is broken and ugly. So you continue to play the game and get into higher and higher stakes. You start to run a company, maybe even a big one with thousands of employees, you get married, have children etc...and your ability to manipulate and control just get wider and wider. And you see that your contemporaries are also psychopaths, so you think, well I guess that's what it takes to make a big impact. So your goals and ambitions, those "delusions" get bigger as you accomplish the "delusions" you previously had and see that you can accomplish a lot that others can't.

This is something that needs to be discussed because from where I stand, it's pretty clear that psychopaths like me "rule the world." It's not from a place of malice or hate though, but adaptation and if we can have that conversation and we can start to recognize and cope with psychopathy then I think everyone would be better off. It's tiring as hell to live this life.

[psychthrow2]

Thank you for posting this; I'm not a public figure, but quickly rising through the ranks of a Fortune 500 corporation -- maybe through skill, or maybe manipulation, I've honestly lost track at this point. I wouldn't consider myself "genius", but definitely above average, and people that "know" me tell me I'm too smart for my own good. I've slowly come to realize that I am what would be considered sociopathic, I find it incredibly difficult to feel empathy, and to form deep relationships (especially intimate ones), most of it is due to logic, that I time and time again I ask myself "why should I care?" and most of the time I can't answer that question. In that sense it is a handicap, sometimes I have periods of crushing loneliness but then quite quickly I can rationalize it into a strength, that I am not bound by human needs and can leverage that to grasp total control, to make money, etc. You do learn to fake a lot of it, you have to, but I find myself slipping sometimes in public by dropping some line and catching some strange looks, thankfully people chalk it up to my "eccentricity." That made my childhood a bit difficult, because at that age you don't even know what is supposed to be normal, but quickly you realize that you're supposed to feel happy in these situations, but in other you need to appear somber. The sheer idea that I needed to "think" about how to act in certain situations, and eventually realizing that others don't do that was certainly difficult, not in the sense of remorse or anything but rather realizing that you are a total outsider look in. I find that slowly revealing who you are can work sometimes, up to a point, before people start to get scared.

It's also interesting to see some people to think that I'm judging them or remotely care about their existence, when in reality I simply don't care about them at all; I think I told my parents that once, which was met by a strange reactions (guess I won't say it again).

To me it seems all perfectly rational and normal; Why would you care about other people? Why not live for yourself? Why not take advantage of other to further your interests? Life has to meaning, so any meaning you assign is just as equally valid. As I continue to interact with people that have no ambition, that are afraid to do something because it might hurt other people the more I fall into the idea that most people are cattle to be taken advantage of by the likes of GP, Trump, Bankers, and others;

And yeah in the end you do realize that you are broken and ugly, that you will never be like the others. If I had any regrets I'd say its not being able to enjoy love as others do, especially when I was younger. But I simply can't see the reason why I would want to do that, there is very little utility, and I feel like it would only slow me down (although having a partner that shares my world view would be nice -- a la Mr Robot's Evil Corp CTO -- but finding that person is difficult since that would require us both disclosing our true personalities).

[warent]

I'm a rather emotional person with a very pronounced sense of empathy. I can, to an extent, feel physical or emotional stimuli that others feel, even if they're fictional characters or animals. It can be crippling but also very rewarding.

Given that short context, your post is interesting to me partly because, from my perspective, it sounds like you're searching for some empathy from me so that the channels of communication will open.

So either you aren't wanting us to empathize with your way of life being exhausting, in which case the purpose of the post eludes me, or you do wish for us to empathize. And finally, you certainly don't wish that you had the ability of empathy to minimize your (potential; real or theoretical) damage to other people's life experiences or feel other people's joy.

In other words, this logically deduces to being entirely self serving. You wish for us to empathize with you so that you can make a personal gain, not because you wish to do better by other people.

Isn't everyone self interested? To an extent, yes. I "selflessly" help someone, which increases my fitness as an organism because I experience their positive experience. If this goes both ways, it's a 4x net gain vs. 1 self interested individual. Two self interested individuals with aligned goals still only get 2x net gain, which is half as much as two selfless individuals.

Maybe I completely missed the mark but that's my evaluation. I'd be interested in hearing more on your perspective.

I have one question: can sociopaths express altruism?

Thanks for your valuable time!

[Psychthowaway]

Right, so that's the trouble with a self aware psychopath - I'm not sure what my motivations are beyond supporting my own ego and increasing my influence.

I have argued for a long time that everything everyone does is self-serving, it's just wrapped in all of this social/behavioral expectation. Maybe that's because I am unfamiliar with actual selflessness.

Can sociopaths express altruism - I argue yes insofar that the outcomes are mutually beneficial. I spent the first half of my professional life in public service, taking much less pay than I could have doing something else. I make special effort to volunteer and spend time during the holidays with the indigent - going so far as not to post or boast publicly because that is transparently self serving - letting others do that on my behalf.

All that is done though so I am "beyond reproach." So you can't say that I'm not great, that I haven't done everything possible to be a "good person." So when it comes time to implement what I want to implement, nobody can find any dirt on me or say I'm a selfish bastard - cause just look at all the good works people can prove that I've done and I never even boasted about them!!

I think this is on the higher end of the functional sociopath spectrum though.

[rumcajz]

Glad you wrote this.

I was often wondering whether it is possible to communicate with a psychopath. Communication requires trust, i.e. that the person you are speaking with isn't lying. With non-psychopaths this is achieved by the complex play of empathy, guilt etc. However, given that psychopaths lack these feeling the mechanism just doesn't work. It's an epistemic and, actually, quite terrifying problem: You have this human being and no chance to ever know what they think of feel.

And if there's no chance to communicate, there's no way to truly solve problems.

And now I hear the problem is experienced even from the other side. And note that I believe you because the comment was posted from a throwaway account and thus you have very little to gain from it.

So maybe, in the end, there's a chance to communicate over the chasm, possibly using some techniques from game theory?

[Psychthowaway]

Yea that's a great point. I think you can communicate with high functioning sociopaths as long as your goals align. Note that your goals are by default subordinate to mine but that sometimes near term ones can be the same. It's generally the case that it's better to build a coalition of people who have shared goals than just manipulate people into doing what you want.

If your goals are misaligned, you'll likely come away thinking that you communicated but you might be being manipulated - which depending on how good they are at it, you might not realize.

It is a challenge though when the situations are forced. If I'm forced to be in a situation that doesn't align with my goals (and also stroke my ego in a certain way that might not be obvious) I will subtly sabotage whatever is going on or horse trade with someone else so that I can get out of the work.

I wouldn't try and play the game theory approach (I assume you mean the prisoners dilemma style cooperate/non-cooperate primarily) with most sociopaths because while a lot of high functioning ones are really logical - we'll change the rules to make the advantage ours.

[dennis_jeeves]

Psychthowaway>> It's generally the case that it's better to build a coalition of people who have shared goals than just manipulate people into doing what you want.

Wouldn't the goal of most "high functioning" sociopaths be near identical i.e: health, happiness and survival? (ofcourse one can debate on how that is to be achieved, but that's another debate)

Anyway, I can identify with a lot of what you put in your parent post. There appears to be a key difference in the way I'm a sociopath. I seem to have became one. For example for me death is an anticipated event that will happen to everyone. I have probably "greaved" over the death of most people who are close to me and are now alive so that when it actually happens it does not catch me off guard. So now I have to feign some grief when it actually happens, so that I do not come across as a sociopath.

And on the topic of death - I have done my own little bit, since I do not think it is entirely inevitable. Being a "sociopath" and having a high degree of objectivity go hand in hand.

[jacobush]

Very good observation of the problem. Interesting suggestion too

[badosu]

Thanks for starting this conversation.

I come from a different starting point, with similar results though.

I'm very emotion driven most of the time, getting out of my way to understand how people feel or think, empathizing with their angst. However I soon learned that many of these characteristics are seen by many as 'weak', and this was impairing my ability to get social advantages.

At the same time, the process of hearing and trying to understand leverages your advantage, as you may grasp the hidden desires of people. If the other person is not engaged in the same profound way, of understanding the dialogue, you end up in a position of power.

I identified very much with the expressions 'robot' and 'playing a character 24 hours a day' because that's how I learned to be more comfortable.

It's really hard to break this chain, that keeps reinforced by the narratives you create yourself, of how you should be seen or perceived, and used as a rationalization (just or not) of happenings on your environment (e.g. as a self-fulfilling prophecy).

[SolaceQuantum]

Have you considered not psychopathy, which is not a clinical term but a criminology term, but something like a dissociative disorder or schizoid disorder? Note that the closest thing to psychopathy is antisocial personality disorder, which is more than a lack of empathy and guilt but also a streak of constant aggresssion and an incapability to learn from the consequences of ones own actions.

Not having empathy with others can be a variety of illnesses, one of which I'm suggesting to look into is schizoid personality disorder. Schizoid personality disorder is an illness in which a person doesn't feel empathy or emotions, has restricted affect. Schizoids can often function as you described above (merely responding based on how they understand other humans to be emotionally like a robot) and often don't feel the need to seek treatment due to their capability to function in this way.

Note: I have schizotypal, a related illness to schizoid (has more delusions etc) and many of your descriptions that you ascribe to psychopathy also describe how I function in reality. Would you be interested in having a conversation about yourself and the limits of your self?

[Psychthowaway]

Have you considered not psychopathy, which is not a clinical term but a criminology term, but something like a dissociative disorder or schizoid disorder?

Yes, when I have spoken with therapists they typically use one of two terms: Antisocial Personality Disorder or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However it's pretty clear to me that neither of those fit because they seem to present without the manipulative behavior.

You are correct though that the term psychopath isn't medical but rather criminal focused.

It was my understanding that schizoid was more along the line of schizophrenia and schizotypal was along the lines of borderline but I am not as familiar with those. I'll look into that, thanks.

[SolaceQuantum]

Schizoid people essentially don't feel anneed for social anything and don't feel emotions. They're usually not diagnosed because you can function just fine. Most schizoids I know function alright except they're bothered by the need to fake social norms for others.

[clouddrover]

> As a public figure, it wasn't worth burning my reputation to type this out

Why?

> It's tiring as hell to live this life.

So don't live it. In your opening sentence you say you must hide your identity and in your last sentence you say it is tiring to live like that. So don't hide behind the "mask of sanity" and then you don't need to be tired.

It won't be easy, but nothing worthwhile is.

[Psychthowaway]

Thing to understand is, if you tell someone you are a sociopath they dissociate with you more or less immediately.

I know this because it happened about two weeks ago. I was with a group of friends and we were discussing things and I brought the topic up to see what their response was. It was generally met with "no way you aren't," "only serial killers are like that" etc... but in the end the whole thing just became morose. I heard later that the other couples had gone to breakfast the next morning without me, and that the bulk of the conversation was about how everyone really got freaked out about it and didn't really know how to deal with me now.

When I talked with my wife about it a long time ago she basically said "Well, I had my suspicions but now that I know it's real I can't ignore it." It basically made her question every interaction we had. She said it turned into living with some kind of robot, where she didn't know what was real and what wasn't.

It taints literally everything once people know about it. So it's not in my long term interest to be open about that fact.

[clouddrover]

> if you tell someone you are a sociopath they dissociate with you more or less immediately.

So? Why shouldn't they?

> So it's not in my long term interest to be open about that fact.

If you're not willing to be up front with people then it's disingenuous to complain about it being tiring. You say you deliberately manipulate people but that you're also unwilling to change that. You're making a deliberate choice. If you refuse to make a different choice then there's no point complaining.

[Rainymood]

This relates to me on many levels, thank you for taking the time to write this out it really resonated with me and I'm sure with a lot more people on HN as well. Do you think it might be worth to test for autism even later in life? like 30+?

[epalmer]

Thanks for sharing that with us. Your perspective is one that I have not seen before, probably because I haven't thought about psychopathy as anything more than the public persona of murderers and rapists.

Your perspective resonates as very plausible.

[urahara]

Great comment. What do you think can be done to cope with this? Maybe empathy and emotions can be learned?

[Psychthowaway]

I'm honestly not sure, and I'm not sure if it's even advantageous to "fix." It's like flying a rocket, dangerous and could blow up at any time but might just get you to the moon.

I do know that it seems like there is an impending "break" coming where it all falls apart, but I'm not really sure what that looks like practically.

I think I've learned the right emotional responses to situations and people, but the way people describe emotion to me is something I don't think I'll ever be able to learn.

[badosu]

Something that should be verified is whether the subject isn't capable of empathy and emotions or assume it as a way to cope with the pain implied by their existence.

[Psychthowaway]

Interestingly enough, it's both.

With Psychopathy someone is born without the capacity for empathy with no environmental trigger necessary to "activate" psychopathy.

With Sociopathy it's generally that childhood trauma "triggers" the lack of empathy.

In both cases, the manifestations of the disorders (manipulation, ego-centrism, grandeur, deceit) are there to cope with the lack of empathy and connection with other people.