Ask HN: Can't get a job because poor communication skills

[rantaccount]

I was let go from my last job because I couldn't fit into the "office culture", and now I'm really struggling to get a job because of "poor communication skills".

I've been looking for 4 months, with 90% of my rejections being something to do with my communication skills.

I feel worthless honestly, and the worst thing about all this is that there is really nothing can do to make my autism disappear.

And honestly, I don't even see why my autism is a problem. I've always seen my autism and quietness as my super power, and it drive me nuts that you people don't see that too.

I was going to ask for help, but realistically that's pointless - I won't change in any significant way. And yeah, I know, "just be good enough that they look past it".

Please just try to be more understanding. It genuinely upsets me because I'm a pretty good developer, yet I know people who are really quite terrible, but they can bullshit well so they're all doing better than me. And this is at your expense quite frankly. The dude writes terrible code, but he came across well, so obviously we hired him...

Oh, and you can all fuck right off with your office culture. Stop wasting yours and my time sending each other cat.gif and joking about how the German IT guy is a secret Nazi. It's not remotely funny, I can't even explain how mad it makes me that I was let go for not participating in this madness.

Urgh, autistic rant over. I've got work to do.

[daliwali]

A lot of commenters are going to try to pick you apart, so instead of that I'm going to tell you an anecdote about what's wrong in this world.

I know a guy who literally could not program, he was hired as a HTML & CSS front-end guy. He was extremely arrogant and always tried to act like he knew what he was doing when it was clear he had no clue, any sort of attempt at teaching would be met with a smug "yeah I already knew how to do that" reply. He wasn't even good at HTML or CSS, either. But he really did know how to suck up to HR, his boss, the management, and getting others to help him do his job. From the outside it seemed like he was competent, but in fact he was skilled at playing people. It would be a win-win for everyone if he was a manager, so his co-workers never have to deal with his horrible, bug-ridden code. This is the type of guy that gets ahead in life while brilliant programmers who lack the over-socialization that is expected these days live on welfare, with parents, or on the streets.

[throwaway848483]

Hello, here are a few tricks which helped me : There are a few ways which will probably help you improve your communication skills. You can try to use Avaz app from Ajit Narayanan, or at least listen to his ted talk. You can also try to pick up some (silent) violin and learn it on your own by playing it by ear (try to avoid using scores as much as possible, try to set-up a routine of around 30min a day, you should aim for "natural" and "fun" absolutely not forced). Something will click one day, it won't make you less autistic, but it will probably show you the way normal people think. Then you will probably get that as for you it's probably not fun being around certain other people which don't get you, the feeling is reciprocal and it's not fun for them being around people that don't get them.

Depending where you live in Europe around 80% of people are quite nice naturally, and will help you if you tell them you struggle or ask for help (but most won't usually understand or care about your autism problems). Avoid the other 20%, they are just exploiting you or making fun of you.

Regarding interviews, try researching a fitting environment. Interviews can usually be hacked quite easily with a little training. Basically you tell them the response they want to hear. If you don't know what to say to a question, either you say "I don't understand", or you grab the most important word of the question and tell them something vaguely connected to it. Obviously the more interview rounds there are, the more chance there is that someone won't like you and puts its veto. Don't attach too much importance to it.

Once you land a job, try to go about two times slower than you can. This way you won't burn out (and be in a bad mood), people won't actively try to prey on you (to get you to do their work), and you will have enough mental energy to naturally pick-up communication skills. (You just earn yourself 20 hours a week to work on improving your communication skills, and even your company will be happy about it trust me).

Also don't be afraid to take welfare. We are in a society which is designed to take advantage of people with autism. It's like taking candy from a baby. So at least take the money, and if you don't need it then give it to someone who does. Or you can keep the money and give some of your time to help some who needs it.

[greengrass]

Your self-diagnosed autism is only part of your problem, your attitude is the bigger issue. You need to drastically reevaluate yourself and your expectations.

First, let me explain why I wouldn't hire you based on what you've written here. For starters, communication is a huge part of the job. Writing code is only one part - clarifying vague or contradictory requirements, helping coworkers, updating on progress, sharing lessons learned, etc are all equally important.

Hiring you also sounds like a huge risk and liability to the company. Every tech company tries to hire and retain women and minority employees and even a single accusation of a hostile work environment or a single incident can tank a company. If I hire you and one of your rude statements or misunderstood communications turns into a blog post on jezebel, I'm probably getting fired as well as putting the entire company at risk. Even if that doesn't happen, my A players are probably going to start looking for better opportunities if they're forced to deal with your toxic attitude in the workplace.

Autism isn't a super power. It's a handicap. You need to drastically check your ego and approach the world as it is rather than how you wish it was. You are very bad at something which is very important (communication).

Approach the the problem of "How can I communicate better?" in the same way you would approach any other challenge - read books, work with experts, ask for help, experiment and see what the results of trying different things is, etc. Change your perspective to accepting you are inferior at one aspect of your job and work to increase proficiency, instead of getting angry that the rest of the world doesn't share in your belief of your superiority.

[tedmiston]

A couple things to think about with this are...

When companies give the reason for turning you down for a job, there's a lot of disincentive for them to give the honest precise real reason (if there is one). There are many ways to be accused of hiring discrimination, whether ageism, sexism, ableism, etc. Basically it's unsafe / unwise for an employer to tell the truth here because it can lead to negative consequences for them, even if their hiring processes are on the up and up.

Similar to when a VC turns down a startup for some reason like fit, I definitely would not take this feedback at face value. Also, culture fit is a generic catch-all bucket for basically anything the company wants besides technical skills, and it may not be well defined.

As you have mentioned, I've also seen less good developers take the roles that better devs should have because they fit into a company's culture more, however that was defined. You probably don't want to work for those kinds of companies. It seems like you're more interested in a culture that values focusing on hard technical work and I think you should seek that out more explicitly.

Keep some good side projects going, have a good reason for your gap time between positions ready for interviewers, and try some mock interviews to get authentic feedback. You can do a free practice interview on Interviewing.io, and I think Pramp is another similar service.

P.S. Don't forget that hiring in our industry is broken. Interviewing for a technical position is a separate skill from developing software. Interviews should focus on making sure a dev would be good at the tasks they'd actually do day-to-day, but often they don't. It's not ideal, but it's just something to keep in mind. Sometimes at smaller cos (startups) it's possible to get hired in other ways and circumvent the traditional interview process.

[smilesnd]

First off you can't self diagnosis yourself with a mental illness. Even experts in the field don't self diagnosis because you have to be objective. Someone that sees a pink elephant from time to time still has to ask someone else if they see it to. There might actually be a pink elephant wondering around.

Second you don't have to be a office social butterfly to have good communication skills. Communication skills is being able to portray information to someone so they can understand it. It is one of the most difficult thing for humans to do.

Thirdly even if you do have autism doesn't mean shit. I have a ton of friends that have been diagnosis with different kinds of autisms. They don't use it as a escape goat nor should any one.

Sorry you having difficulty fitting in with others and getting a job. You did it once so it is mostly likely you will do it again just keep grinding away.

[zbyte64]

Should we be calling Autism an illness? Like OP I feel like this condition is not a negative thing, just a different thing with some drawbacks and benefits.

Communication and socialization are different categories. Personally, communication isn't an issue if it is goal oriented. When I do not understand the goal of many social situations, communication does not follow.

When you get fired for not being chatty enough and you cannot change even if you wanted to then autism means something. Not a scape goat but god dammit people need to understand "a culture fit" does not mean hiring friends.

[smilesnd]

First off illness and mental illness 2 different things.

Second there are people that don't have any mental illness. They are just general dicks or idiots, and get fired for not being a "culture fit".

Thirdly there is 2 sides for ever story. We have little facts about the entire situation. In my experience when you get fired they don't give you reason why. They wish you best luck in hopes you don't show up the next day with a gun, and that is about it.

Finally people get fired all the time for all sorts of reason. Some times the company doesn't need all the people. Sometimes the CEO wants more money whatever reason it is it happens. I seen people get fired because they couldn't speak English, and it wasn't like they were hiding it through the interview process. Life is rough get a helmet don't use anything in life as a escape goat.

[LifeQuestioner]

I think the fact you just called Autism a "Mental illness" - and the fact is is NOT a mental illness, kinda undermines any advice you're giving and indicates you don't understand what Autism is, let alone how it affects people.

"Social/communication", "difficulties" is one small part of autism.

[smilesnd]

Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by impaired social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior.

A mental disorder, also called a mental illness[1] or psychiatric disorder, is a diagnosis by a mental health professional of a behavioral or mental pattern that may cause suffering or a poor ability to function in life. Such features may be persistent, relapsing and remitting, or occur as a single episode. Many disorders have been described, with signs and symptoms that vary widely between specific disorders.

Hence autism does fall into the category of mental illness. Maybe psychiatric disorder would be a better term, but pears to pears at this point.

[hitsurume]

I've been reading over this thread and it seems to me that you would be better off freelancing or being a consultant then actually working a steady job. Your attitude screams "just let me get the job done and don't bother me" which I personally think is ok, but doesn't fit the open office culture that most technology companies are doing.

Lastly, if you really do work faster / better then most developers you worked with then you "should" have came across a competent manager who knows your worth. In the companies i've worked for, managers has always made exceptions for people who produce great work and don't partake in the social schemes. I have friends that basically found a manager who knows their worth and have followed that manager to every new opportunity, essentially being a valuable tool in the managers toolbox.

[euroclydon]

Clearly you're angry. Your writing is clear. Is your verbal communication lacking in some way? I'm not familiar with how autism affects verbal communication, but let's just way it does. Well, written communication is crucial for most remote jobs. Yeah, some people like to spend a bunch of time in a video chat, but most value async text-based communication like IM or email. Seems like you'd be fine in that environment.

[rantaccount]

My verbal communication is basically non-existence. I struggle even with remote work (I've worked remotely previously), and finding remote work is extremely hard anyway. And basically impossible for someone who can't hold a Skype conversation.

What upsets me is that I harbour no dislike to people without autism. I don't understand a lot of your jokes. I don't understand a lot of your interests. But I try to be friendly in my own way. I try to smile when you say something that isn't funny.

But I don't get that same respect back. People rather simply reject me.

"He's weird".

"You need to work on your communication skills".

Fucks me off because I know people who are deaf in tech who can hardly talk and I've never heard someone say they need to work on their communication skills. Because they do.

I'm fed up with trying to be normal so people don't think I'm weird. And I'm fed up and trying to fit into "the culture". And I don't want to shoot some pool at lunch, I want to be left alone.

I just want people treat me with the same respect I treat them for being different to me.

So honestly yeah I am pissed off. I'm homeless now thanks to this constant shit. I can't even explain how fed up I am of being rejected for such a stupid reason.

[bsvalley]

Two questions for you - Is your autism medically "documented"? Are you applying in the US?

If both answers are YES then you have to mention it when you apply online in the disability section of the form. In the US it is required by law for companies to acknowledge disabilities. Or should I say, a company can easily get sued for discrimination. That could help you during the recruiting process, if your autism is recorded as a disability.

[rantaccount]

I've never been diagnosed, no, and I've never had any interest in doing so although I was often pushed to get a diagnosis in school/college. As I said in another comment it's only ever been a problem in my life when other people make it a problem for me.

A principle I will life and die by is that everything I have in life I've earned. I've never accepted any welfare, or any kind of extra help or support in any way my entire life. I was probably the only kid never to enter a cheat code on GTA.

I don't want a job because I'm filling the retard quota. I couldn't accept that. And either way, I'm quite capable of doing my job.

The only time it's really anything close to a disability is when I'm trying to explain some tech, or something like that. But I can do it just find if I'm given time, or pen and paper. But that's never been the issue. The issue has always been people disliking me in the office for not fitting in. Or not giving me a chance in interviews because I don't know how to correctly answer questions like, "what makes you excited?".

[LifeQuestioner]

one benefit of getting a diagnosis: you learn way more about yourself. Which might help with finding a job/applying to places that suit you. Could be you're applying to the wrong places!

Also, better selfawareness means you can HELP people understand and HELP you! We all live in this world together.

[AlwaysRock]

Do you bring it up proactively? I'm not a HR manager so I cant say how appropriate it is but If I was interviewing someone and they let me know they have autism and it affects their communication skills I would be much more understanding than when I'm interviewing someone who just seems to have poor communication skills for no obvious reason.

Remote work might also be a good option. A part from the anger your written communication doesnt seem affected. I also understand not loving getting cat gifs but if that's part of the office culture you have to make some attempt to assimilate.

[rantaccount]

I don't say I'm autistic, no. I have wondered bringing it up, but I don't like the handy caps.

I never wanted extra time in exams. My brain works so well in so many wells thanks to my autism. I've genuinely never seen it as a drawback. The only time it's a problem is when people decide it's a problem.

And the problem isn't that I don't want to assimilate, I simply don't understand how. I don't know how to make a joke. Whenever I try to tell jokes I'm told my joke is weird, or offensive, or disrespectful. I don't understand the rules of humour so I shut my mouth and get on with my work.

I had a conversation the other day with my parents about how I should respond to "how's your day going?" When is it appropriate to be honest if you're having a bad day? How do I tell if someone is saying that to start a conversation, or just saying hi? It's tricky. So I say, "i'm fine". And then people tell me I'm being rude or laugh at me.

[ckrnews]

Just take the joke of another person and tell that one. You don't have to make your own jokes

[bjourne]

I also have Aspergers (or I should say had, because the diagnosis doesn't exist anymore). And yes, it sucks. I really wish I had some answers for you. I've always tried to fit in to the best of my ability, but they always see through me. It is a paradox that you can be very smart in other ways but not smart enough to execute behavior to make you a respected member of a group.

Sadly, it is perhaps so that regular software development is not a good career path for autists anymore because of the shift from hard to soft skills that has happened in the last 15 years. Maybe other avenues are more suitable, like book writing, lecturing or something.

[mod]

Bad communication?

Fix your communication.

It's one of the most important traits of a good developer, and of a good employee.

You can practice communication like any other skill. You will be good at it. It won't take you very long.

Good luck!

[usgroup]

I think if you're as awesome as you say then start every morning interview with :

"I've got issues communicating but have compensating super powers"

Then go onto give a scripted explanation of what they are , so that it's not impromptu and so that you're evaluated on your own terms.

As someone that's hired many people, I'd respond well to this.

[zn44]

Many developers self identifies as autistic, i am sure you will encounter them on your interviews if you keep looking. They will understand. Stay calm and confident being angry, frustrated or nervous is most common reason i see people failing interviews.

[hluska]

I'm going to toss this out in hopes that it will hope, though I fear that you may take my words wrong.

I understand that this is a rant, but I'm concerned about some of the words that you chose. Consider some of these phrases:

> And honestly, I don't even see why my autism is a problem. I've always seen my autism and quietness as my super power, and it drive me nuts that you people don't see that too.

> I was going to ask for help, but realistically that's pointless - I won't change in any significant way.

> Please just try to be more understanding. It genuinely upsets me because I'm a pretty good developer, yet I know people who are really quite terrible, but they can bullshit well so they're all doing better than me. And this is at your expense quite frankly. The dude writes terrible code, but he came across well, so obviously we hired him...

> Oh, and you can all fuck right off with your office culture. Stop wasting yours and my time sending each other cat.gif and joking about how the German IT guy is a secret Nazi. It's not remotely funny, I can't even explain how mad it makes me that I was let go for not participating in this madness.

When I read those (even knowing that this is a rant), I can't help but wonder if those attitudes come across while you're looking for work.

For example, I wonder how you would answer, "Why did you leave your last job?" Do you start to talk about the German IT guy who was a secret Nazi? Do you talk about how the team bonding was a waste of everyone's time? Does your disdain for culture come through?

Or, what happens if someone asks what your weaknesses are and how you plan to compensate for them? Do you say, "I'm autistic, but I won't ask for help because I won't change in any significant way"?

Do you understand my point here? Your communication skills may actually be fine, but perhaps your anger scares people away.

I'm not sure that you're really looking for advice, but I have a few pieces for you.

1.) Get your autism diagnosed and start looking into programs for autistic adults. This is absolutely critical.Here's the thing about autism. You understand certain things differently, but it's not like you have an inoperable stage four tumour. Autism doesn't mean that you can't change, it just means that you might have to work harder at things that come naturally to people who aren't on the spectrum. But, there's another side to that coin because people who aren't on the spectrum will have to work harder at things that come naturally to you.

Just because you get diagnosed, you don't necessarily have to fill (these are your own words) 'a retard quota'. However, a diagnosis will help you access some programs that will help make things easier for you.

One of my buddies is on the spectrum and he has an incredible amount of difficulty with sequences. This cat loves music though and wanted nothing more than to learn how to play guitar. But, everyone said, "no, it will be too hard for you because sequences are hard for you." Despite that though, my buddy learned how to play guitar and is currently playing with one hell of a good band.

2.) We all have struggles. You struggle with autism. I struggled with a terrible speech impediment. And others struggle with addictions, mental illness and a myriad of problems.

You'll be surprised by how compassionate people can be if you tell them that you struggle. Heck, my buddy the guitar player has learned to be pretty straight up with people when he doesn't understand what's going on. "Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but I have autism and I don't understand what's expected of me."

It was harder than hell for him to start doing that, but he's been incredibly surprised by the results. Random people will say that they don't understand what's expected of them either, but they just fake it. Employers compliment him on his courage and say that he is a transformational influence in their companies. Co-workers tell him that he has changed how they view people on the spectrum.

And, do you know what? All he had to do was tell the truth...

You will be okay. You're obviously very smart and you have tremendous capacity. If I were you, I'd work very hard on the bitterness and consider getting some help. But, you'll be fine.

And for the love of all that is holy, don't let others change your opinion on yourself. Few people understand autism, but that's their problem, not yours.

Be safe and if you need a friend, my email is in my profile.

[rantaccount]

Thanks dude. That was nice to read.

No, I'm not very confrontational and in general I've learnt to act normal very well. If you met me at a meetup or something you probably wouldn't guess I'm autistic at all. I've honestly spent years working on my social skills and it's paid of quite well.

In interviews the issue really only comes in when I'm asked really vague questions like, "what gets you excited?" I don't really know how to answer those kind of questions so I start stumbling. I also have the same problem with certain technical questions. I was asked to explain regexs recently and I find that very hard because I struggle translating the conceptual ideas in my into words.

Also when I'm in an office I get quickly tired of pretending to be normal. If I'm having a rough day I don't have the energy to pull it off and then problems start cropping up.

I don't know your friend, but we sound different honestly. I pick up things insanely quick. Things like programming and maths just make sense to me. I don't need to get into special programmes because when working on my own I know I can out perform the majority of people. My issue is 100% with other people judging me for not being able to understand irrelevant things to my work such as social etiquettes and my slightly unusual methods of explaining myself.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm annoyed at the suggestion that I need special programs. Growing up I always loved being autistic because it made be able to do cool things like teach myself to code. I was always in top sets for subjects like physics, maths, etc and I was one of the strongest developers on my course in college and university.

I don't need help, I just need people to be understanding that some people like to be left alone and take a little longer to figure out a good way to express themselves. My issue has always been that people don't like that I'm anti-social and they don't have time for my less eloquent explanations.

Edit: Additionally, I do often say, "sorry I'm autistic" and ask for help. For example it's very common for me to say, "sorry I'm autistic, have I upset you?", or sometimes I will ask if they want me to stop talking. I find it very hard to read those things.

But in interviews I'd never mention I'm autistic. If I'm given a job I want to know it's because someone thinks I'm the best person for the role. I don't want sympathy. I just want people to stop being so judgemental towards me.

[hluska]

You're a good person and unemployment sucks, so I'm not going to let this go. Basically, you have a choice. You can wait for the entire world to change, or you can be the change that you want to see.

There isn't anything wrong with you and I'm sorry for my shitty wording. You don't "help" because there's nothing wrong with you. A lot of the programs available to adults on the autism spectrum amount to little more than acting lessons.

I know that the social world is strange, and I understand how judgemental people are. But there are compassionate, understanding people out there who could teach you how to essentially bluff your way through all the weird social interactions we're expected to participate in.

I'd equate this to the movie the Hannibal Lecter movies. I don't think that Anthony Hopkins is a serial killer who likes to eat his victims, but he did a damned good job convincing me that he was. And straight up, I wouldn't let him cook for me...:)

Sorry again - I read over my reply and I overstated the concept of getting help. You don't need help because there's nothing wrong with you. Some pseudo acting lessons though might be tremendously beneficial!

Once again, you're a good person and I'm sorry my first reply was misleading. Take care...

[RikNieu]

I don't need help, I just need people to be understanding that some people like to be left alone and take a little longer to figure out a good way to express themselves.

Consider this logically. Which would be the most optimal and efficient solution to your problem; learning to change your own behavior and expectations, or expecting the whole world to adapt to you?

Btw, I have similar difficulties in expressing myself verbally and can relate to your issues very well. I'm probably a lot older than you though, so I've had a few years to work on my 'soft' skills. I'd say I'm only moderately annoying by now, I'm aiming for 'quaint' by the end of the year.

[urahara]

There should exist companies with cultures friendly to people like you. I'm quite surprised that given your high level skills and what seems very minor communication problems, anyone actually judges you that hard. Seems like you had very bad luck with your working environments. Have you tried to research companies with spesific culture that could suit you well? Also maybe you could start your own business and avoid unwanted communication this way?

[LifeQuestioner]

OP when you finally find your job they'll like you INSPITE of your social difficulties.

No-ones perfect, we all have faults!

Because sorry if people can't see that, not sure it would be a good environment for you.