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by thekid314 3469 days ago
I'll play devils advocate here. Their solution is too complex and tries to fix a non-problem.

For someone learning Arabic the letters are the first of many challenging steps. I learned the Arabic letters in 1 day with flashcards. That single day was easy compared with everything that came afterwards. Using a romanized scripts makes all these subsequent steps with grammar and accents much harder.

I can see how this would be helpful in accurately learning new accents, but accents are notoriously inaccurate and flexible, the Arabic letters leave that flexibility, outside of academic text Romanized letters would require so many exceptions that it be like nailing jello to a wall.

It would be useful for news organizations if this system was applied across many languages so that we can always spell and pronounce names correctly.

The use of non-english keyboard letters creates complexity. I much prefer the use of number replacements for letters that teens use when texting. sa7?

7 comments

Author here.

Thanks for the feedback.

I might disagree with your characterization that the problem I'm addressing here as a non-problem as writing systems are there for a reason and so is mine.

Eskéndereyya doesn't tackle the problem of Arabic letters memorization as this is a very simple problem to crack. It instead addresses pronunciation and reading and to a lesser degree writing as you may know that the common way to write and serve text in Arabic is without diacritics, and for this reason, it becomes hard for beginners to practice and improve their skills without aid and this is where I envisioned Eskéndereyya to fill the gap.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey with the part of accents in your comment. Are you referring to Arabic regional dialects/languages?

Re complexity, doing nothing will always be less costly that doing something in terms of energy and effort but this point of view overlooks the gains or return expected on the energy expended, and if the return turns out to greater than the costs, the endeavor is determined to be profitable and vice versa.

So, you may think that this layer of complexity is unnecessary but I will take your word "sa7" as an example to prove how I think otherwise.

"sa7" is "صح" in colloquial Arabic but it's still ambiguous and confusing as the letter "s" in Arabizi can mean both "س" or "ص" depending on context but when the word is transliterated as "šaħ", the ambiguity disappears with no room to error.

You might counter and say that there's no "سح" in Arabic but there actually is but it's less common since it's slang but featured in a well-known old Egyptian folk song titled "essaħ eddaħ embú السح الدح امبو"

To summarize, there's always a trade-off and it's up to you to decide which you to go.

> I'll play devils advocate here. Their solution is too complex and tries to fix a non-problem.

I'd say you are on the wrong side. All Arabs continue to write in Arabizi. I have lived in this region for years, as a non-native speaker. When I first arrived as a student for my first rodeo in 2006, I once wrote SMS in Arabic letters. That Egyptian kid later asked why I would do that. He was terrified it was a plant or a trap or something, that is how rare it was then.

However, I will give you a point. None that we are moving beyond basic SMS encodings and the limit of standard cell phones and on to Unicode and emoji-rich smart phones, WhatsApp and others have enabled a renaissance in Arabic writing amongst some.

But many continue to write to me in English characters. And re your point learning in one day: the reading is fun, the writing on a keyboard for a society where Arabic literacy (not English, mind you) is largely de-emphasized and many cannot read/write formal Arabic, the desire for Arabizi hides deficienies people would not rather admit.

>Using a romanized scripts makes all these subsequent steps with grammar and accents much harder.

This is the exact problem with learning Japanese using roumaji (rouma ji = roman character; ローマ字), because you of course start to read the latin script with your starting accent (assuming of course your first language is written using the latin alphabet).

However some textbooks persist with using it, despite being excellent otherwise (Japanese: The Spoken Language being one). I can't stress enough the need to move off reading Latin characters. It is also useful to learn the characters by sound rather than their roman equivalents. i.e instead of learning that ロ is "ro", you could learn it by listening: https://youtu.be/aLEtZ2CRoho?t=1m53s

The mental association is everything.

Well, I must say that I fail to see the rationale of this argument as I speak other European languages and I haven't encountered this problem before.

The mental process goes like this; I identify the language of text let's say Spanish and then like a switch in my brain is turned on for the Spanish pronunciation and then I proceed to read the text using the rules of the Spanish language while English is totally disabled.

This is not like unique to me as I observed other students with the same process. I can't really say that the issue you described is a universal issue for all language learners worldwide.

I think the case is different for languages that use the same script, such as a European language learner learning another European language. The learner must learn to switch "modes" and this is reinforced all the time by any kind of reading, because the learner has no choice but to switch modes.

However this mode switching is not reinforced in the case where the script (in this case the Japanese script) is not latin-based.

I think I'm trying to say that native speakers of latin-based languages who are learning latin-based languages have to learn to change their mode of pronunciation, whereas if they were to learn a non-latin-based language they don't (and shouldn't) learn this at all, because in the long run it isn't useful.

Except romaji isn't used to teach pronunciation, it's meant to help the student read while they are still getting familiar with kana; much like furigana for kanji.

Japanese characters have one pronunciation in all circumstances (excluding diacritical modifications). Respectively in romaji, consonants and vowels will always have the same pronunciation. Compare that to American English where accents have been removed and even native speakers can have trouble pronouncing new words.

>Except romaji isn't used to teach pronunciation

I know, but students will continue to treat it as a pronunciation guide anyway, unless told specifically how to pronounce otherwise. It's especially bad when the Japanese is supported by romaji way into the course, which fosters laziness in the student.

unvoiced vowels at the end of sentences sometimes get dropped in Japanese 'です' (more 'dess' than 'desu'). So it's not entirely consistent.
I studied Russian for one semester when I was in middle school. I didn't learn very much and can remember even less: only a few simple words like яблоко (yabloko -- "apple").

But I can still sound out words in the Cyrillic alphabet without any difficulty. Learning another alphabetic script really doesn't take that much time or effort.

Same here, but in college. Got the Cyrillic alphabet in a couple weeks but it was by far the easiest part of a very difficult semester.

I switched to French.

I've learnt azbuka purely from our national TV news (in central Europe), during the course of a year, and I was not trying at all - one day I realized I could read the sentence they showed (even though I couldn't understand it).
Cyrillic is easy until you see it written in cursive :)
>For someone learning Arabic the letters are the first of many challenging steps.

Exactly, for most other languages as well. I only needed flashcards with Hebrew (as an Arabic speaker, I only needed to remember shapes because sounds are similar). To learn Cyrillic was more figuring out what changes and connecting it to Greek alphabet (р is rho, г is gamma, д is delta, п is pi, etc).

Transliteration for most languages is just another layer of complexity in my opinion given the tiny amount of time I needed to acquire alphabet (the letters, not Google's parent company).

Here's something I started. Need to get back to that:

https://github.com/jhadjar/Language-Acquisition

I've been learning Russian for two years, and I can only agree with you. Learning to read and write Cyrillic script was the easiest part of this adventure.

And I think learning all sorts of nuances of the language would be more complicated using Latin script. Latin script also hides the fact that, even though the letters are similar, they really are different sounds. I feel like it would only hinder pronunciation.

It really isn't fair to compare Cyrillic script with Arabic. Cyrillic is basically the same script as Latin, even characters are alike. Hell, even something like Japanese hiragana is pretty much the same stuff as Latin alphabet, even though it looks nothing like that and is built upon syllables, not letters. And hence it is a bit harder to learn, but not by much.

However Arabic script is a whole different thing. It has a whole lot of diacritics, characters change their shape depending on the position within a word, characters are notably less distinctive for an unaccustomed European than Latin letters, Cyrillic letters, hiragana or runes.

The comparison of Arabic with Russian is not sound as Arabic is written with diacritics which in and of itself is a big plus if you're a native speaker or an experienced one but not so for inexperienced or novice speakers while Russian to my understanding is more explicit about that part.
Do I understand you right, that Arabic uses diacritics when written in Arabic script? Or did you mean Arabic when written in Latin script?

Using diacritics is usually a sign, that the language uses a script that does not map very well to the target language, so the latter would be understandable.

Slavic languages would the same in this regards. Those, that are written in Latin script, have to use diacritics. Those that use Cyrillic, do not need to.

All Cyrillic alphabets I am aware of do use diacritics. Й, Ў, Ё, Ґ..
While you are of course right, that there exist such characters, Belorussian and Ukrainian are not all Cyrillic alphabets.

But then, I'm also not an expert on all Slavic languages, I just remember when I was taught Russian and azbuka years ago, there was none and that caught my attention.

> Belorussian and Ukrainian are not all Cyrillic alphabets.

LOL Please, tell us an «all Cyrillic» alphabet. Old Church Slavonic by Saints Cyril and Methodius maybe?

Why Belorussian and Ukrainian are «not all Cyrillic alphabets»? (I'm Ukrainian).

Й and ё are in Russian alphabet. In schools it is never highlighted that those are diacritics, so to many it doesn't register.
Those letters use no diacritics. They are just letters.
These are the letters with diacritic marks.
Agreed. I have some proficiency in MSA and Levantine Arabic after studying for 4 years in college and the alphabet is the least challenging part.