[justinlaing]

Who is going to move to Toronto to join the tech scene? If given the choice who is going to choose Toronto over Bay Area or Seattle?

Without it having a massive draw it won't even register compared to Bay Area or even Seattle.

[jacques_chester]

If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto. Every day of the week. Toronto's great.

Sure, it's like the planet Hoth for a third of the year. But in every other way it's a more liveable city. The public transport in the core of the city exists and works, rather than being a cobbled-together mishmash of uncoordinated systems of which 2 out of 3 seem to be broken at any time.

The rent is a shit ton cheaper, the people are much nicer, the food is more varied, the city is gorgeous in summer, it's big enough to have serious amenities, small enough to be walkable and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are.

I live in NYC, because I prefer it to SF as well. As an Australian citizen I find it significantly easier to work in the USA than in Canada. But if Toronto's scene were on a rough scale with NYC's and if the immigration thing could be sorted, I'd be tempted to move.

[forgetsusername]

>and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are.

As someone who grew up in a forestry town in Northern Ontario...Toronto is a world away, and much more similar to the Bay Area than where I grew up.

[jacques_chester]

Oh, for sure.

But there's Brooklyn hipsters, and SF hipsters, and Toronto hipsters, and then there are actual forestry workers who come into town.

[MustardTiger]

No they don't. Toronto is two plane rides away for them.

[superplussed]

What is harder about Canadian immigration? I'd always had the impression the U.S. made things more difficult.

[jacques_chester]

I'm Australian. We have a special visa, the E3, which is very easy to get.

Meanwhile almost everyone else is stuck in the H1B shitshow, which has in the past 5 years grown from merely "terrible" to "nuclear-powered self-propelling toxic thunderblob".

[yardie]

I've been curious if the US has a reciprocal visa with Australia? I'm a USian who has a deep affection for Melbourne.

[jacques_chester]

I am not a lawyer, but I think the 457 visa fills a role similar to the H1B or E3. You need to coming in for a job on the "Skilled Occupations List"[1], which currently includes various job titles related to software development.

[0] https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/457-

[1] https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a...

[cylinder]

No, but the 457 is easy and you may also have independent skilled migration options to get PR without job sponsorship. Let me know if you need help.

[avn2109]

Don't think so, the Americans gave the Aussies the E3 as quid pro quo for fighting with us in Iraq; it's not a bi-directional agreement.

[goatforce5]

Does the E3 still have the "if you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave the country" clause on it?

It had me on edge the whole time I was in the States (which funnily enough prompted me to find a job in Toronto).

[jacques_chester]

Yes, but with the job market the way it is, it's not too risky.

Here's how it would play out if I left my job.

I'd fly to Toronto on Canada's visa waiver, wait there until the E3 expired.

Fly back to NYC on the USA's visa waiver program. This gives me 90 days to find an employer who will sponsor an E3.

Fly back to Toronto to get the E3 done.

Fly back to NYC to start the job.

It'd be a silly shuffle of about a month, and more disruptive and expensive than it would be for someone holding a green card or citizenship. But in no sense would it be a game-over disaster.

[goatforce5]

If you entered the US on a VWP, and try to reenter the US on the VWP without going further than Canada, Mexico or the Caribbean, you may find yourself denied entry.

I'm not sure if this applies if you were on a different class of visa before attempting to reenter the US using the VWP. I think the US border agents would be very suspicious though.

I've entered the US about 15 times since my E3 expired, and i'd say i've been specifically questioned about my E3 on 8 or 9 of those occasions. "You used to work in America? What's the name of your current employer? Are you looking for a job at the moment? You know you can't work in the US any more, right?" Stuff like that.

[serge2k]

> if you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave the country

If it's like the TN then no, because it is not 2 weeks to the leave the country it's "leave the country".

[uola]

"If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto"

The thing is that for most people this wouldn't be the candidates. Toronto is probably a third tier city for startups, meaning there are more candidates and factors to consider.

[MustardTiger]

>and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are

No, they are the same hipster dufus people as in Portland. There are no lumberjacks in Toronto.

[chawco]

I did. Toronto is a great city. I've traveled a good deal in Canada, and the US, and while I can't compare it to cities outside of those two, I will say that I still consider the best city I've ever experienced.

While the tech scene isn't as hot as the other regions you mentioned, it's still strong. Very strong. It's also starting to be noticed by the bigger players (with Google and Apple both investing in the region). Currently I'd say the biggest weakness for tech in Toronto is the financing side, with the traditional financiers being very focused on revenue and getting cash flow positive early in a company's cycle (a very Canadian, risk averse business culture), as opposed to the riskier but higher reward models favoured in the valley. But the greatest strength is easy to spot: the city itself.

It would be easy to argue that Toronto is the most cosmopolitan city in the world. The standard of living and quality of life are very high, and widely recognized by publications such as The Economist. The diversity in the city isn't just surface deep either: Toronto boasts one of the most diverse economies for a large city in North America. The strong tech industry sits aside a very strong finance industry, media industry (tons of television shows and movies are produced in Toronto), fashion industry and others. The way I like to explain it to people is that Toronto is not the best at anything -- but it is among the best in almost everything.

So there's lots of work. The other ingredient is that there is also lots to do. The strong cosmopolitan nature of the city means a dizzying array of options for dining. Those options are not just the affordable "ethnic food" you typically think of, but run the full gamut from affordable and delicious to some of North America's best fine dining. To that you can add world class museums, excellent (if under built) transit, many interesting bars and cafes, housing that's quite affordable compared to the bay area (I own a townhouse close to the city centre), hot summers and reasonably mild winters, government provided universal health care, and so on and so on.

So yes, people definitely do move here to join the tech scene, but not people whose ONLY consideration is the work they do everyday. That's an important consideration -- perhaps THE most important consideration when looking for a place to live, but it should not be your only consideration. Once you start to add in the other factors Toronto looks fantastic.

[lj3]

Are you an American or a Canadian? As an American, every time I talk to a Canadian company they assume there must be something wrong with me. They don't understand why anybody would choose the cold and less pay over someplace like SF.

[chawco]

I'm Canadian, so obviously there's some inherent bias. Part of it is the annoyance of visa, permanent resident, and citizenship shenanigans necessary to get into the US (TN visas are non-residency track).

Part of it is cultural -- I feel like people are friendlier here in general (although the difference isn't so great in the bay area), even in the bigger cities.

Part of it is really hard to describe -- there's just something that feels grimy about American cities in general. By comparison virtually every Canadian city I've been in feels much cleaner than every american city I've been in. San Francisco and New York can feel particularly bad -- I never smell human urine walking down the street in Toronto, but it's a regular occurrence for me in San Francisco.

Then there's the homeless situation. Toronto is by no means free of homeless people, but the problem seems to exist on a completely different scale than it does in San Francisco or New York. It really makes a big difference in how you experience a city, for me at least.

[halostatue]

The company I’m a development manager at wouldn’t look at you funny, partially because I’m an immigrant from America and completely agree with you (I do not want to work in America, and would leave any company that decided to move all of its jobs there).

[vigilant]

I do love Canada, but New York City has nearly all of those same positives which you list (other than universal health care), to an even greater extent. And you can get bay-area level salaries there (as opposed to Toronto, where your salary is half what it would be in the bay area)

[chawco]

I spent a good deal of time in New York when I was younger -- in Manhattan working for an investment bank in technology. I didn't really explore the other boroughs much, but I did stay in the city for an extended period of time (~6 months in one go). I've also spent a good deal of time in the bay area (San Francisco), so the point where I spent more than half of my time there as opposed to here in Toronto. All of that is to say, I'm making a very conscious comparison between the options.

As far as New York goes, I'd argue it's less liveable than Toronto (or at least it was nearly 10 years go). It's much, much more expensive, much busier (obviously), and probably has the best amenities of any big city anywhere in the world. That being said, I'd also argue that it's less cosmopolitan than Toronto. New York is among the most cosmopolitan cities in the world of course, but I think Toronto beats it. I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe.

Then there's the expense -- the likelihood of me being able to own a 3 bedroom house in Manhattan doing what I currently do is zero. It just isn't happening. In Toronto I live only about 3km from the financial district, and I can get to my office in an Uber in under 10 minutes. I'm at an age where I'm starting a family, and I live in a very family friendly urban area -- there's even an elementary school on my street.

And yes, bay area level salaries are hard to come by here -- I was earning one when the exchange rate was closer to parity a few years back, and subsequent pay adjustments have not kept up with the weakness of the Canadian dollar since the collapse of the oil market. The salaries are lower, but they're nowhere near half. And that's fine, as I'm still paid very well, and my standard of living is unobtainable in New York or San Francisco without earning substantially above market rates in either market.

[gabbo]

How did you manage to afford a 3 bedroom house 3km from the financial district in Toronto on an engineer's salary? Did you buy a long time ago?

I'm incredibly envious because I can't imagine affording that kind of real estate on a Toronto developer's salary without making some serious retirement savings/lifestyle sacrifices.

[chawco]

A couple of factors -- I'm not a recently out of school grad, I got my first job working as an engineer at a startup at 17, and worked at some other startups while in school (full time, not co-op), so I've got at least 12 years of experience (not including some of those early jobs) spread between a handful of startups and some much bigger organizations. I'm technically not just an engineer -- I also have some management duties at work. I also have a spouse who works full time, but earns significantly less working in a finance related role. This is a big factor WRT to take home pay -- marginal tax rates are a killer, and a second income puts that income in much lower tax brackets.

When it was time to look (mid 2014), we were pre-approved for an irresponsible amount (very low debt load, don't own a car, etc), took that number and cut a few hundred thousand off, and went looking for somewhere where we could put more than 10% down. When it came time to do the mortgage, which was admittedly handled by a family friend, they arranged to float a top up to 20% to skip CMHC fees (we end up paying the bank a few thousand in interest, but save tens of thousands we would've had to pay in mortgage insurance). All said and done, the mortgage plus other financing costs us about the same as a nice studio apartment in San Francisco. In about 3 years we'll have the extra financing paid off, and our mortgage will cost us less than sharing an apartment in SF.

As far as lifestyle/savings goes, not really. My wife has always been a great saver, plus while her current gig is a bit stodgy it does come with some old fashioned benefits (like a DB pension along with a DC pension on top). We go on frequent trips, enjoy dinner around the city on a regular basis, and other things.

edit: I'd also like to add that you have to be picky, and be picky about the right things. Our place had some cosmetic damage and beat up appliances included (cheap things to fix, relative to the price of a house). We only paid a bit more than $100k extra for a 3 bedroom freehold townhouse (no condo fees, we own the actual land and building) compared to a 2 bedroom stacked townhouse that was literally half the square footage and came with a $400 monthly condo fee in the same neighbourhood. That was a new build, while ours was from 2009, about 5 years old at the time. Several of the other units in the complex have sold since we moved in, at hundreds of thousands over what we paid for our unit just 2 years ago. It feels like the market was discounting some easily fixed issues with appearance at a huge premium over the actual cost of the repairs and new appliances. The listing online was also DREADFUL. It really looked terrible in the online photos compared to an in-person viewing.

[sotojuan]

> I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe.

> I didn't really explore the other boroughs much

Maybe that's why you think that :-)

[potatolicious]

Yeah, I'm in NYC, having lived also in Toronto and SF before. No way I'd choose Toronto over NYC - larger tech scene (both BigCo and startups), diverse economy, working transit, huge cultural hub (many times greater than Toronto), and tremendous food scene (again, many times greater than TO).

Having recently taken a poke around the Toronto tech market, "half" salary in Toronto is being generous. Where I'm at right now (~SDE3 in most companies) the pay in Toronto is 1/3 to 1/4 what you can get in the Bay Area or NYC.

[James001]

I doubt New York has a better food scene than Toronto

[sib]

I don't have the data to measure this definitively across all price points, but as for the high end, New York City has 76 Michelin Star restaurants for 2016, while Toronto has 5.

[Cyph0n]

How difficult is it for a U.S. citizen to relocate and start working there? Healthcare is only for Canadians, correct?

[johan_larson]

If you have a job offer, my impression is that it's fairly straightforward to get Canadian residency.

Government-funded healthcare (OHIP in Ontario) is extended to all residents. There is a three-month waiting period for it to kick in unless you are in one of several special groups, which you probably wouldn't be.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/ohip... http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/ohip/ohipfaq_...

[AlexC04]

No, we'd keep you healthy if you showed up... I lived abroad for 5 years and bought 3 months of blue cross (medical insurance) when I got back, then I was straight back onto the taxpayers' dime.

(Which, to be fair, I'm one of)

[halostatue]

Healthcare is for legal taxpayers. When I immigrated (18 years ago; I’m not sure I’d qualify now, but that’s because of shifting priorities in job needs) it took three months of being uninsured and my PR papers to get my OHIP card that I’ve had since.

[wbkang]

Anyone who's been working legally for 3 months is eligible for healthcare.

[shazow]

After being in the Bay Area for the past 7 years, I'm moving back to Toronto next week. Can't wait.

[hughes]

Congrats! What convinced you to go back?

[shazow]

I loved living in Toronto, it's a great city. Like any city, it has its problems, but it feels like a healthy city. There's good transit, it's reasonably affordable[0], there is great diversity, there is tech but there is also everything else.

Living around SF, the problems don't feel like they're being treated, but rather covered up with more and more money. It feels dysfunctional on too many levels (many of these problems are not at the municipal level). At this point, I can't afford to live anywhere near the SF core (and I'm not sure I'd want to if I could) while maintaining the lifestyle that is important to me. Living on the outskirts has taken a big toll on my happiness over the years, and it's a good time for us to move for a multitude of other reasons of varying importance (political, cultural, financial, social, etc).

I hope Toronto becomes an even more important player in tech, but it's in a great position even as it is.

[0] People constantly debate that Toronto is overpriced because prices keep going up, but it's still very cheap compared to most other cities in the world of similar calibre.

[bsurmanski]

speaking as someone who has lived in both the Bay area and Toronto, I think Toronto has a chance.

The Bay area is a nice place to work in your 20s, but it's not a good place to settle down. With housing prices, homeless population, just a general grime over most things.

Toronto's the type of city you can move to when you thinking of settling down and starting a family. Very clean and friendly. Cheap enough to afford. That and not every Canadian wants to get a visa and live 4000km from everyone they've ever known.

[dasil003]

People without US citizenship/residency?

[halostatue]

I did, although eighteen years ago, and originally not for the tech scene as for love. But I am constantly telling recruiters who reach out to me that I have less than zero interest in working in the U.S., and more or less zero interest in working anywhere but Toronto.

We may not be the “best” tech scene in North America (but I am currently running what I consider to be an amazing Rails-first team), but I can’t imagine wanting to live elsewhere permanently.

[anonymousab]

Waterloo and Toronto alumni, presumably.

[stuxnet79]

No a lot of us are either staying here and working remotely for companies stateside or we are moving to the states altogether. This is especially true of Waterloo. Most of the Waterloo devs I know, and they are really good mind you, are either in Seattle or Bay Area working for one of the Big 4. To stay competitive, Toronto will have to reel these individuals in and I don't believe there's sufficient incentive to accomplish that right now. See this[1] for instance.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/2d7818/w...

[personjerry]

Most the talent gets drawn to Silicon Valley, from what I've seen.

[simonbarker87]

Visa's a way more friendly and straight forward for Canada than the US. We'd love to move to the US but life's too short for the visa process, my wife and I are both PhDs, electrical engineers (4 years automotive and 5 start up experience) and I genuinely can't see a sensible route in to the US, Canada looks pretty straight forward though.

[Aelinsaar]

One earthquake could change that overnight. If they're betting on that eventually, they just need to stay lined up in the #2 slot.

[sjg007]

I would. It is so expensive here...

[matt_wulfeck]

If you think buying a house in the Bay Area is crazy, getting ready for the speculative madness of Toronto.

[patrick_99]

People who can't get visas to the US