[vigilant]

I do love Canada, but New York City has nearly all of those same positives which you list (other than universal health care), to an even greater extent. And you can get bay-area level salaries there (as opposed to Toronto, where your salary is half what it would be in the bay area)

[chawco]

I spent a good deal of time in New York when I was younger -- in Manhattan working for an investment bank in technology. I didn't really explore the other boroughs much, but I did stay in the city for an extended period of time (~6 months in one go). I've also spent a good deal of time in the bay area (San Francisco), so the point where I spent more than half of my time there as opposed to here in Toronto. All of that is to say, I'm making a very conscious comparison between the options.

As far as New York goes, I'd argue it's less liveable than Toronto (or at least it was nearly 10 years go). It's much, much more expensive, much busier (obviously), and probably has the best amenities of any big city anywhere in the world. That being said, I'd also argue that it's less cosmopolitan than Toronto. New York is among the most cosmopolitan cities in the world of course, but I think Toronto beats it. I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe.

Then there's the expense -- the likelihood of me being able to own a 3 bedroom house in Manhattan doing what I currently do is zero. It just isn't happening. In Toronto I live only about 3km from the financial district, and I can get to my office in an Uber in under 10 minutes. I'm at an age where I'm starting a family, and I live in a very family friendly urban area -- there's even an elementary school on my street.

And yes, bay area level salaries are hard to come by here -- I was earning one when the exchange rate was closer to parity a few years back, and subsequent pay adjustments have not kept up with the weakness of the Canadian dollar since the collapse of the oil market. The salaries are lower, but they're nowhere near half. And that's fine, as I'm still paid very well, and my standard of living is unobtainable in New York or San Francisco without earning substantially above market rates in either market.

[gabbo]

How did you manage to afford a 3 bedroom house 3km from the financial district in Toronto on an engineer's salary? Did you buy a long time ago?

I'm incredibly envious because I can't imagine affording that kind of real estate on a Toronto developer's salary without making some serious retirement savings/lifestyle sacrifices.

[chawco]

A couple of factors -- I'm not a recently out of school grad, I got my first job working as an engineer at a startup at 17, and worked at some other startups while in school (full time, not co-op), so I've got at least 12 years of experience (not including some of those early jobs) spread between a handful of startups and some much bigger organizations. I'm technically not just an engineer -- I also have some management duties at work. I also have a spouse who works full time, but earns significantly less working in a finance related role. This is a big factor WRT to take home pay -- marginal tax rates are a killer, and a second income puts that income in much lower tax brackets.

When it was time to look (mid 2014), we were pre-approved for an irresponsible amount (very low debt load, don't own a car, etc), took that number and cut a few hundred thousand off, and went looking for somewhere where we could put more than 10% down. When it came time to do the mortgage, which was admittedly handled by a family friend, they arranged to float a top up to 20% to skip CMHC fees (we end up paying the bank a few thousand in interest, but save tens of thousands we would've had to pay in mortgage insurance). All said and done, the mortgage plus other financing costs us about the same as a nice studio apartment in San Francisco. In about 3 years we'll have the extra financing paid off, and our mortgage will cost us less than sharing an apartment in SF.

As far as lifestyle/savings goes, not really. My wife has always been a great saver, plus while her current gig is a bit stodgy it does come with some old fashioned benefits (like a DB pension along with a DC pension on top). We go on frequent trips, enjoy dinner around the city on a regular basis, and other things.

edit: I'd also like to add that you have to be picky, and be picky about the right things. Our place had some cosmetic damage and beat up appliances included (cheap things to fix, relative to the price of a house). We only paid a bit more than $100k extra for a 3 bedroom freehold townhouse (no condo fees, we own the actual land and building) compared to a 2 bedroom stacked townhouse that was literally half the square footage and came with a $400 monthly condo fee in the same neighbourhood. That was a new build, while ours was from 2009, about 5 years old at the time. Several of the other units in the complex have sold since we moved in, at hundreds of thousands over what we paid for our unit just 2 years ago. It feels like the market was discounting some easily fixed issues with appearance at a huge premium over the actual cost of the repairs and new appliances. The listing online was also DREADFUL. It really looked terrible in the online photos compared to an in-person viewing.

[sotojuan]

> I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe.

> I didn't really explore the other boroughs much

Maybe that's why you think that :-)

[potatolicious]

Yeah, I'm in NYC, having lived also in Toronto and SF before. No way I'd choose Toronto over NYC - larger tech scene (both BigCo and startups), diverse economy, working transit, huge cultural hub (many times greater than Toronto), and tremendous food scene (again, many times greater than TO).

Having recently taken a poke around the Toronto tech market, "half" salary in Toronto is being generous. Where I'm at right now (~SDE3 in most companies) the pay in Toronto is 1/3 to 1/4 what you can get in the Bay Area or NYC.

[James001]

I doubt New York has a better food scene than Toronto

[sib]

I don't have the data to measure this definitively across all price points, but as for the high end, New York City has 76 Michelin Star restaurants for 2016, while Toronto has 5.