[jacques_chester]

If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto. Every day of the week. Toronto's great.

Sure, it's like the planet Hoth for a third of the year. But in every other way it's a more liveable city. The public transport in the core of the city exists and works, rather than being a cobbled-together mishmash of uncoordinated systems of which 2 out of 3 seem to be broken at any time.

The rent is a shit ton cheaper, the people are much nicer, the food is more varied, the city is gorgeous in summer, it's big enough to have serious amenities, small enough to be walkable and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are.

I live in NYC, because I prefer it to SF as well. As an Australian citizen I find it significantly easier to work in the USA than in Canada. But if Toronto's scene were on a rough scale with NYC's and if the immigration thing could be sorted, I'd be tempted to move.

[forgetsusername]

>and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are.

As someone who grew up in a forestry town in Northern Ontario...Toronto is a world away, and much more similar to the Bay Area than where I grew up.

[jacques_chester]

Oh, for sure.

But there's Brooklyn hipsters, and SF hipsters, and Toronto hipsters, and then there are actual forestry workers who come into town.

[MustardTiger]

No they don't. Toronto is two plane rides away for them.

[superplussed]

What is harder about Canadian immigration? I'd always had the impression the U.S. made things more difficult.

[jacques_chester]

I'm Australian. We have a special visa, the E3, which is very easy to get.

Meanwhile almost everyone else is stuck in the H1B shitshow, which has in the past 5 years grown from merely "terrible" to "nuclear-powered self-propelling toxic thunderblob".

[yardie]

I've been curious if the US has a reciprocal visa with Australia? I'm a USian who has a deep affection for Melbourne.

[jacques_chester]

I am not a lawyer, but I think the 457 visa fills a role similar to the H1B or E3. You need to coming in for a job on the "Skilled Occupations List"[1], which currently includes various job titles related to software development.

[0] https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/457-

[1] https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a...

[cylinder]

No, but the 457 is easy and you may also have independent skilled migration options to get PR without job sponsorship. Let me know if you need help.

[avn2109]

Don't think so, the Americans gave the Aussies the E3 as quid pro quo for fighting with us in Iraq; it's not a bi-directional agreement.

[goatforce5]

Does the E3 still have the "if you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave the country" clause on it?

It had me on edge the whole time I was in the States (which funnily enough prompted me to find a job in Toronto).

[jacques_chester]

Yes, but with the job market the way it is, it's not too risky.

Here's how it would play out if I left my job.

I'd fly to Toronto on Canada's visa waiver, wait there until the E3 expired.

Fly back to NYC on the USA's visa waiver program. This gives me 90 days to find an employer who will sponsor an E3.

Fly back to Toronto to get the E3 done.

Fly back to NYC to start the job.

It'd be a silly shuffle of about a month, and more disruptive and expensive than it would be for someone holding a green card or citizenship. But in no sense would it be a game-over disaster.

[goatforce5]

If you entered the US on a VWP, and try to reenter the US on the VWP without going further than Canada, Mexico or the Caribbean, you may find yourself denied entry.

I'm not sure if this applies if you were on a different class of visa before attempting to reenter the US using the VWP. I think the US border agents would be very suspicious though.

I've entered the US about 15 times since my E3 expired, and i'd say i've been specifically questioned about my E3 on 8 or 9 of those occasions. "You used to work in America? What's the name of your current employer? Are you looking for a job at the moment? You know you can't work in the US any more, right?" Stuff like that.

[jacques_chester]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll amend my plan to include flying back to Perth.

[serge2k]

> if you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave the country

If it's like the TN then no, because it is not 2 weeks to the leave the country it's "leave the country".

[uola]

"If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto"

The thing is that for most people this wouldn't be the candidates. Toronto is probably a third tier city for startups, meaning there are more candidates and factors to consider.

[MustardTiger]

>and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are

No, they are the same hipster dufus people as in Portland. There are no lumberjacks in Toronto.