[shanusmagnus]

The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet. Considering that it's vitally important, often ignored, devoid of negative side effects, and free to implement, I think you're the one being irresponsible.

[0xcde4c3db]

> The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet.

No, it isn't, but people really, really like to think that it is [1]. Like most other interventions worth talking about, there are situations it improves, situations where it doesn't change much, and situations it worsens (those "consult your physician before starting an exercise program" disclaimers aren't just for show).

[1] http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2010/11/30/ex...

[a3n]

Anecdote of one: Looking back, I've been depressed most of my adult life, from 20 to my current 58. A few years ago I went to CrossFit for a couple years. I went from not being able to do a single pullup, to being able to crack off 20+.

It didn't help. For me. I still wanted to kill myself, and all the while I went to the gym I felt it was pointless.

Again, that's an anecdote of one. The cause of my depression and someone else's, and the effective treatment, are potentially very different.

Great if exercise helps a particular depression. But if it doesn't, the that person is fit and depressed.

A mental health professional is the best bet.

[NikolaeVarius]

I can relate.

I went on a fitness binge a bit back. These days I can run a 10k in 45 minutes pretty easily, hit very good lifts for my weight class, and eat salads basically every single meal.

After work and after the gym, all I want to do is drink or anything similar to get rid of all the thoughts in my head about how pointless it all is. Why the hell do I care if I can do all that crap.

I feel like how others do. I work 60-70 hours a week because work is the only thing that keeps me away from more depressive thoughts. I don't enjoy doing anything. I've tried going on vacations, hiking, all the things people say young people should do.

All it ever does is make me more depressed that I don't enjoy these things at all, especially since I'm in my early 20s. I've tried doing hacking with Arduino and Raspberry Pi's because I'm supopsed to enjoy that, but no matter what, I don't care because it all seems like junk. I don't care about that shit at all.

I sold a majority of my stuff, and the majority of my possessions fits into a single SUV. No permanent furniture, nothing that costs more than a grand.

Owning stuff brings me no joy, so why even bother having it around.

[ZeroGravitas]

One of the symptoms of depression is losing interest in things that you previously enjoyed.

I was mildly depressed for a while and even things that previously gave me great joy, like music and hanging out with close friends, lost their charm. I believe the technical term for this is ahedonia. Luckily I got better and the joy came back.

So perhaps you do enjoy some of the things you've tried, your just not in a physical state to feel it at the moment.

[a3n]

Yeah, this is how most things felt for me. Why do I care? And then I'd look at other people enjoying their lives, doing things they do, things that I do too, and wonder WTF? What's wrong with me?

For me, with treatment, I've gained back the capacity to enjoy life. I've gained myself back. It's not happy pills and shining eyes, it's just me, still with my individual qualities and quirks, who's been in there all these decades.

I hope you get help. It's hard to think that help is worthwhile, when everything else seems pointless. But it's worth talking to your doctor or other professional, and it's worth continuing to try if the first methods don't work. You are in there somewhere.

[mistermann]

Do you hate what you do for work?

Kudos on being able to accomplish all the fitness goals under the circumstances, fwiw.

[NikolaeVarius]

No, I actually somewhat enjoy it. I do wish it was a bit more technically challenging, but really, if I didn't work as much as I did and at the very least took a bit of enjoyment out of it, I probably would have killed myself last year. It's the only lifeline I have.

[mistermann]

I was just thinking maybe you could find something you love. At this stage the salary you receive probably isn't terribly important. If you're that close to the end of your rope, trying fairly random solutions maybe isn't that bad of an idea.

[studentrob]

Are you curious about anything? Travel, girls, sports? Could you put yourself in a new environment to renew some curiosity?

[NikolaeVarius]

Tried out travel. Went to about a half dozen countries. Didn't do it for me. Everywhere is pretty much the same. People trying to live their day to day lives with minor difference in culture. Meh.

I'm terrible with people in general. I'm generally a huge bummer to be around and people don't really interest me too much.

Sports are boring as hell to me. I used to play tons of soccer, but I don't quite enjoy it all that often. Tried hiking and mountain climbing and never really enjoyed it. Even after dozen hour hikes, mostly just got a dull sense of meh.

[studentrob]

Fair enough. Can I just say, you don't know for certain you're a huge bummer to all others. That is just your perspective. There are people who enjoy being around people who others consider a huge bummer.

I get that you don't like being around people yourself. But I know there are some who'd enjoy your company despite your own feeling. I don't have a magic solution for how to find such friends.

My only other suggestion, aside from speaking to a therapist, would be trying meditation. Taking a few deep breaths in a quiet space, sitting in a relaxed but upright position, and trying hard to think about nothing, or only your breath, for 20 minutes, can do wonders. It is harder than it sounds and can open your mind to a lot of possibilities that previously seemed impossible. I recommend the book Mindfulness in Plain English if you're interested to learn more. It's free and available online. You're as valuable as any other person on this planet. We're all equals. Once you believe that, you can do anything you set your mind to.

[Zeeem]

I don't recommend giving this advice to people who are seriously depressed. Speaking as someone who went through that for two years, it's more of a disease than a lifestyle problem. I could have done all these things and still have been miserably depressed.

What helped me was talk therapy, medication (the biggest factor), and having really supportive friends.

[studentrob]

What is the process of talk therapy? Isn't it just asking questions? Did I actually give any advice there?

For sure friends are best. But if someone vents online, how are we to know whether this person will go elsewhere or not for support? I'm not offering to take the place of a professional but I wonder if it really hurts to converse with a depressed person online by asking questions. Silence certainly isn't helpful. And if everyone just says, seek professional help, is that really empathetic? Sounds a bit robotic to me.

[DanBC]

> Isn't it just asking questions?

Not really. It's really easy to find out how, for example, cognitive behavioural therapy works, and it's not about asking

Counselling is just talking (or perhaps "active listening") but the evidence shows that counselling is pretty terrible as a treatment for depression.

[DanBC]

Here we have a person expressing psychologic pain. And then another person, with no medical training and no psychologic training dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog". It's not a helpful way to give that advice. And it might not be useful advice.

> The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible

How do you explain the meta-analyses that show weak results for exercise?

http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre...

> However, it is not clear if research actually shows that exercise is an effective treatment for depression.

> Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression.

> Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies.

> Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies.

> The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive.

> The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive.

[farresito]

dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog" Well, thank you. Apparently recommending to incorporate jogging is dismissing any possible other cause. Furthermore, I say that I still haven't beaten depression, even after doing sport, which implies that even I do not consider the lack of sport to be the only cause.

[forgetsusername]

What is there to explain?

From your post it looks like exercise can have positive effects on depression. I haven't read anywhere here that it's the only solution. But it's sometimes as effective as other known treatments (according to your own link) and it's cheap and easy to implement.

Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either.

There are people in this thread crying for help. They are looking for advice. Yes, going to see a doctor should be at the top of your list. But let's not pretend the medical system is perfect, or that we all live in San Francisico with a ton of progressively thinking doctors. There's still a stigma with mental health, even in the medical field.

[DanBC]

> Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either.

No, they don't. But they are more likely to work than exercise, and they're easier to try than exercise. The problem with recommending exercise is that it's not effective for most people, and can increase feelings of hopelessness and despair in people who try it but who see no effect. This makes it harder for them to seek help from a qualified professional. It also requires considerable effort - 30 minutes of exercise 5 times a week isn't something that most people with a severe depression can do. (And here the recommendation was more than that! 30 minutes a day.)

Here the suggestion was not "try exercise on top of seeing a doctor", the suggestion was "try exercise".

Don't forget that suicide is a leading cause of death (second leading cause of death in US males aged between 13 and 35 http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/ ) so there's a risk of real harm here.

If people are going to give unsolicited medical advice to someone with a potentially fatal illness they should probably spend a bit of time to see if there's any evidence to support their advice, or they should make it much clearer that they're sharing their anecdotal experience in an attempt to empathise.

Every single time depression is mentioned on HN someone will say "try exercise".

It's a meme that needs to end because it's potentially harmful, mostly not helpful, and it can feel really dismissive to people with depression.

[shanusmagnus]

A reasonable person will not hear the suggestion "try exercise" and infer that since "drink water" was not mentioned, that they ought to stop drinking water.

Unless you have some weird heart condition, or are attached to an IV pole, or are not subject to the laws of gravity and therefore are in danger of floating off into space should you leave your apartment, exercise will probably not hurt you, and may possibly create a positive change in your circumstances, whatever they happen to be[1].

[1] I trust the majority of HN readers to figure out when disclaimers apply.

[facetube]

It's a great adjunct IMO, but it doesn't necessarily fix the underlying problem reliably. I got my usual run up to 21 miles before I developed fractures in my shins and the coping strategy fell apart. I should have spent some of that time with a doctor.

[kzhahou]

It might help, but the advice to Get Physical, just by itself, isn't useful. The disease itself works against a will to exercise.

The best advice and only one worth giving is to please seek professional help if you think (or know) you have depression.