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by ameen 3850 days ago
As an Indian, I doubt I'll qualify for work in these companies. The problem for non-EU, non-US devs wishing to work remotely [1] is that most companies can't legally employ you or aren't willing to jump through bureaucratic hoops just to employ you.

I'd subscribed to a remote-only jobs board and the issue was that either I didn't qualify for work due to my residency, or the company never really responded.

I would say if these issues didn't exist most companies wouldn't have to import a workforce from elsewhere. Most third-world countries have a decent quality of life that we wouldn't have to transplant ourselves & be harassed by less-qualified xenophobic residents just to work and pay obscene taxes (by third-world standards) that in the end does serve them.

I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising) and for the populace to wake up once the industries that kept them at the top move out of there.

[1] - Most of us speak fluent English and are aware of western cultural sensibilities & work ethics (thanks, Hollywood! & outsourcing firms). Our skill level isn't to blame either since we adhere to industry standards in code-quality, best practices, design patterns, etc.

I'm Westernized, loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome, but thanks to nationalities and nationalists the U.S. has imposed these arbitrary impediments designed to keep away those willing to move from their native countries to further their careers.

11 comments

I am a developer living in Canada (emigrated from India a long time ago) and I have heard of and seen many outsourcing horror stories. So I wouldn't say most Indians adhere to "industry standards" in code-quality, etc. They are just in it to make money and many times do a very shitty job. Also, communicating with them isn't very easy. Most Indians think they speak fluent English, but I would say in my experience it's business level, not fluent. And ditto for cultural sensibilities and work ethics. I have first hand experienced many new-comers just flat out lie on their resume to get a job and act like it's not a big deal.
The problem is with "outsourcing" in the first place; the incentives are totally different. I'd like to hear from Western companies who've hired remote workers in India... I used to work in for a non-profit that is based in the U.S. but has its dev team in Poland. I think it is an open-ended outsourcing contract that's still going on years after it was started, i.e. they are pretty much employees. When we've had problems with code quality we'd call them out on it and they'd clean up their act. That's something you can't get with touch and go outsourcing.
Fab.com had outsourced it's entire engineering to a company in Pune. They did eventually acquire the company itself.
I fully agree with what you've said, and unfortunately it's a stereotype permeated by the IT Sweatshops of TCS, Infosys et al.

I was brought up in an Urban city, English is the only language I've learnt right from childhood and continue to do so, the language that I'm most fluent in. (yes I can't read or write my native tongue). I do agree that lying on resumes is widespread that some of us (who believe we're upto snuff in our fields) don't bother to bring resumes to job interviews, usually we're contacted by recruiters/hiring teams based on our past projects.

I grew up in Mumbai as well. You are probably from upper-middle class, so I don't think all Mumbaikars would classify as learning English as the only language. I think you are in the minority.

I'm going off on a tangent here, but even if English is the only language you speak, it doesn't necessarily make you fluent at communicating with Americans, because you aren't necessarily exposed to the same cultural and linguistic nuances. This can often lead to a lot of miscommunication.

I have met many Indians who are fluent in English and it's the "only thing" they speak and they wear it as a badge with pride. Ironically, these people are worse than the people who are not as fluent in English because they tend to speak English at extremely high speeds as if they are reciting something, which makes it just as hard to understand. And combine that with an accent, and you've lost all the advantage you have as a "native" English speaker.

I'm not from Mumbai, but from Chennai and have worked in Bangalore. I do speak other languages, English is the one I'm most fluent in. I don't wear this as a badge of pride, it's just the reality.

I do agree that there could be a little bit of a cultural disconnect, accent could be an issue as well. Although it's surprising that those "fluent in English" would have no ideas about stress, intonation, etc but I digress. I wouldn't class myself as a native speaker, only one who is able to communicate properly with a native speaker.

It isn't just lying on resumes, my Indian colleagues have horror stories of the levels of cheating they experienced doing their CS degrees at Indian universities. They all felt they had to do an MSc at a UK university, at huge expense, in order to be validated because those institutions are trusted.
Totally agree, I'm planning a similar route as well (albeit at American institutions). It's sad how stereotypes affect others who don't necessarily conform to them.
"become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising)"

That is not very nice of you. Sure everyone wants the best options for their careers no matter where they are, but don't say these things loosely.

I live in America and to be honest, it is still one of the most immigrant friendly countries in the world. Yes they have difficult and archaic immigration rules which need to be improved.

If you are truly good, then companies from the US will hire you remotely. I know that it is possible even though a bit more difficult. A lot of tech companies have opened local offices in India and they pay really well.

Sorry you couldn't detect my sarcasm. But it's disheartening to see U.S. of all places succumb to such stuff [1]. U.S. was built on enterprising immigrants who made it the country it currently is. No other country could then stake a claim to be a melting pot of the world nor could they dominate in so many industries. Software Engineering elsewhere is just following the lead established by American companies.

I work with Startups more often than with established companies (I work with interdisciplinary teams) and for a fledgling startup to onboard a remote employee is risky.

[1] - When a leading Presidential candidate wants to block you from entering the country because of your faith, I'd say most others would resort to stronger words.

The US has been anti-immigrant for pretty much it's entire history. Whether you were Irish, Polish, Chinese, Catholic, Mexican, Jewish, Muslim, whatever - at some point, a vocal group of Americans didn't want you to come here. But people came anyway. And they made it work. I can't think of any other country on Earth that is as diverse as the US.
> I can't think of any other country on Earth that is as diverse as the US.

The U.S. is actually not that diverse. It's middle-of-the-road in that category (ethnically [0] and culturally [1]). In fact, both of its neighboring countries are rated higher.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16...

[1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and...

There's two examples of immigrants that came here without strong opposition. The initial immigrants from Europe (which didn't work out so well for the indigenous population) and African slaves (which didn't work out so well for the population entering the country).

It's always seemed to me that part of the American culture is a determination that comes partly from the mentality of immigrating despite the objections of the people already here. The people who needed to be welcomed stayed in their own countries and the headstrong people who just didn't care came to the US.

It almost America's version of fraternity hazing or that hellish 201 course that winnows the field down to just those willing to endure unpleasantness to achieve their goals.

That's an interesting perspective. "Natural selection" for future citizens.
How about Surinam? The only thing they currently don't have is a lot of Caucasians.
Don't be disheartened at [1]. All of the leadership for "his" party came out of the woodwork to condemn his rhetoric. They will now coalesce around a more acceptable candidate. Note he has only had about 25% of 1/2 of the voters. Or about 12.5% total. He will fall and be opposed exactly for this. No matter what your political party just about everyone in the US understands freedom of religion is a foundation (except that one, now obviously, fringe candidate).
He's a close second (Cruz is a distant 3rd) in the betting odds.

https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-ie/betting/politics/us-presi...

a rather selfish approach to keep things polite.

- you want us to be more xenophobic, but in the same time steal local jobs for yourself, with our pay, but your local expenses. just WOW

- there are specific laws to prevent what you want to do, at least in some cases. it's called protection of local market, and a very good think to do, helps economy long term.

- again, xenophobic WHAT? I sit in 1 row here with Swiss, British (err... Scotch), Belgian, Kiwi, Chinese, French, Dutch, Ukrainian, Indian, Philippino etc. No issues whatsoever.

- you have a naive view of how good remote Indian resources are. technical skills happen to be OK in many cases, but all remaining, and at least EQUALLY necessary are not. 0 initiative, 0 willingness to take any risk/personal responsibility for decisions. "please hand me over perfect spec and I'll get it done" is nice, but doesn't work in world without perfect spec, or any spec at all. Plus Bangalore is not cheap anymore, Pune is so-so. Eastern Europe wins so far in price/value ratio.

and I could go on and on... one strongly suspect troll there :)

>err... Scotch

Wouldn't recommend calling us Scots "Scotch". We're not whisky ;)

Isn't British inoffensive to Scots? Odd he decided to bundle an entire nation with whiskey :P
I think people in the UK who refer to themselves as "British" are actually in the minority - most people I know would say they are English, Scottish etc.
It's inoffensive but can be taken hesitantly as a lot of people seem to mistakenly think it's synonymous with "English".
my bad (and your mistake for making such a damn good drink :))
Thanks for the morning chuckle....
That was sarcasm, sorry you couldn't detect it. Some of us love to travel and experience other cultures.

I'm well aware of traditional "Indian resources", one's that are trained over a 3 month period and passed off as "Expert in his field", and coached to give B.S. responses while they scour for another underling with better skills suited for the project.

But there are others who truly understand the product needs, and aren't afraid to engage in a discussion to figure out the best outcome for the product rather than to satisfy the clients.

> you want us to be more xenophobic, but in the same time steal local jobs for yourself, with our pay, but your local expenses. just WOW

Keeping things polite is a good intention, but this is far from keeping things polite.

> be harassed by less-qualified xenophobic residents

Nice generalization.

> pay obscene taxes

I quickly skimmed the wikipedia article about taxes in India and it seems like if you were to earn as much as companies in Europe are paying for developers you would be either in 30% bracket or 20% bracket. 30% is more than I pay and I live in Europe. Doesn't seem obscene to me.

I have family in the U.K. and the U.S., and my family members in the U.K. have been told "to go back home" when they've been born & raised in that country. Could be a generalisation but one which my family has experienced.

Honestly surprised that you pay lesser taxes than us. Not sure which country you're from. I expected the EU to have similar tax brackets. My tax rant was more to do with the fact that taxes contribute to the very citizens' that complain.

Also taxes in India are a lower amount comparatively because it's base salaries and CoL is much lower to begin with. A SE with Google or Amazon India makes about ~ $24,000.

> Could be a generalisation

What's the total number of people your family had contact with vs number of people that told them 'to go back home'?

> but one which my family has experienced.

To quote hn favorite "The plural of anecdote is not data".

Do you live in EU and think that you won't qualify?

Or are you living in India and complaining that you won't qualify to work in companies that are expecting people from EU to contact them?

This is a newsletter that picks job listings from remote working job boards (mostly WeWorkRemotely), based on timezones, not nationality.
Sorry, but what part of the world isn't anti-immigrant? In my experience, the East, esp. India, China, Japan, the Arab world are extraordinarily more anti-immigrant with more entrenched race-based outlooks than the US. How is there no cognitive dissonance being from an incredibly racist society yet scoffing at the US for not opening the doors to immigrant workers more? It's not the US - it's the world we live in, and the US is not close to the worst.
While I definitely don't agree with this sentiment

> I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising)

I definitely agree with everything else you just said. I'm a Swiss citizen, Swiss born and raised, US educated, but my parents are not from Switzerland, and my name is not Swiss. I look as European as anybody else.

I couldn't even get a data entry job in Switzerland dammit. The US companies where asking for relocation, and if remote only at a 3-4x lower salary. I can't stand the US car culture (I'm a walkable city guy) so relocation was not an option for me.

Ended up doing a startup in my parent's home country. Fully bootstrapped, great revenue, great quality of life. 10-15% income tax.

With global health insurance, superb quality of life, walkable cities, cheap everything, no discrimination against you... Why would anybody want to move to the EU or US nowadays?

Hmm. There are many reasons why you might not want to relocate to the US, but car culture should not be one of them. Depending on the city, it is entirely possible (nay, often preferable) to live without a car.

See https://www.walkscore.com/ and try typing in various cities or zip codes.

I've been to every major US city. Compared to European or most Asian cities they are simply not walkable.

Notable semi-exceptions might be Downtown SF, Manhattan, and Vancouver in Canada. But all of them have serious drawbacks when it comes to public transportation and rent prices.

correct me if I am wrong, but if I understood correctly:

- your parents are non-swiss and non-european, but came here, got you citizenship and adter growing up here you moved to US for university and stayed away - is that right?

You shouldn't be surprised what they asked from you - relocation. There are specific laws who companies can employ here, and noone is going to break the law just because you would like to set things up your way. If they allowed that, in couple of years Suisse in many ways would be gone as we know it. As you well know, it's a tiny job market with high salaries. they need to keep people spending their earned cash here. Your citizenship doesn't make any difference, it's not xenophobia or anything, just simple laws that people and companies here follow.

- taxes you mention are possible here too, it's super safe here even compared to rest of Europe (US is simply uncomparable) etc. If you are happy where you are, great for you! All you describe is from my view valid about Switzerland too.

The Swiss example I gave was for staying in Switzerland. I couldn't get a decently paying job in Switzerland as a European (SEE), Swiss citizen, living in Switzerland. At that point I wasn't discussing remote jobs at all. I kid you now, at one point one of the HR people told me jokingly in an interview "I thought you people do nly do Football" WTF??

The problem is that Swiss companies certainly hire you if you have a foreign background (as long as you can do the job), but they will think twice about it, and they expect you to accept a considerably lower salary as a "foreigner" too.

When everybody in the industry talks about "talent shortage" what they really mean is "talent shortage at a lower price point". They get to the lower price point by exploiting immigrants or as in my case people they consider foreigners.

> I thought you people do nly do Football

That got a chuckle out of me. Gotta blame Shaqiri, Xhaka, etc for being so good :)

What is your home country? As a digital nomad I am always on the lookout for great quality-of-living : cost-of-living ratios!
Any South Eastern Europe coast city does it really. I personally like nature and silence every now and then so I stay at Albanian Riviera Villages May-July and Mid-September-October.

If you know the young scene and make friends quickly, as a digital nomad Prishtina, Split, Belgrade are also awesome. Try Istanbul if you really like a lively city.

Sounds wonderful to be honest. Where is your company incorporated in? Would love to contact you but there's no info on your HN profile.
Just updated my profile if anybody is interested. We hire globally and remotely.
Yes, what a shame it would be for you to have to pay 1st world standard of taxes. I mean, clearly India has it all figured out on how to build a functional society without such an obscene tax burden.
> and pay obscene taxes (by third-world standards) that in the end does serve them.

Of course, that is the whole point. It has to serve our economy primarily. No one is against India having it's own strong economy, why would anyone, but it is not our business to improve your economy.

It sounds harsh but no one except your own people will improve your economy. You do it yourselves or no one will.

> I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising) and for the populace to wake up once the industries that kept them at the top move out of there.

Why would you wish that there is more anti-immigrant sentiment or even worse racism? (that sadly is happening right now)

Aside from that your logic is faulty. These businesses move somewhere else because our business elite decides so and the legal framework for doing so is set up by our political elites and guess what: It is done in a way to primarily improve our own economies or our political power.

If the political elite doesn't like something about the policies of country X they will put sanctions in place and our business elite will (with a few exceptions) follow.

> I'm Westernized, loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome, but thanks to nationalities and nationalists the U.S. has imposed these arbitrary impediments designed to keep away those willing to move from their native countries to further their careers.

We are nation states with citizenships and borders. All of our states primarily serve their own citizens, not others.

There is no human right allowing me to live in Monaco, Tokyo or New Dheli just because I want to further my career. The only exception is asylum for persons that are threatened in their own countries, but aside from that there is no obligation whatsoever.

As a slightly bitter 'European' I would welcome you in a heartbeat.

The real problem (for us) is that the quality of immigrants differs by a very large margin. Countries like France and Belgium (where I have lived) rather let in the first 10,000 applicants vs the best 10,000.

The US is far far better in that regards with Canada probably being the best example imo.

Forgive my ignorance, but could you elaborate or link to a source on the legal difficulties of working remotely?