[user_0001]

>(besides Israel, obviously) Out of interest, why obviously? The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange (to most outside of the US who I have spoken to).

Israel has it's religious fundamentalists (just like the rest of the region).

Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), has actual developed the nuclear bomb, is destabilising to the region, discusses attacking their neighbours (sorry not attacking - pre-emptive...

Yet this is never questioned, nor discussed from what I can tell. They are "the good guys" so the rules are different for them.

[dang]

Since this turned into an off-topic flamewar we've detached it from its parent and marked it off topic.

[rayiner]

> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes),

Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g. the Roman Republic). Democracy is not a matter of being the "good guy" or the "bad guy" but a matter of how people relate to each other and the government.

[discardorama]

> Israel is our ally ...

... because a large number of conservative Americans believe that Jesus is not going to come unless Israel is ruled by a Jewish king (or something like that; see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?p... )

... because a large number of donors to the Republican (and Democratic) parties are wealthy Jewish folk. And we know that in the US, money talks when it comes to policy.

As a result, most politicians feel the need to pander to the hardliners in Israel: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-jewish...

[pdeuchler]

Wait, are you serious?

While the partition plan was ostensibly created by the UN, it was more or less completely designed and pushed through by the US. Israel, for all intents and purposes, is a US created state. Not only would the failure of Israel leave a huge black eye on US foreign policy, but Israel is also one of our most publicized allies. If we were to allow Israel to be overrun by an Arab consortium we would have zero soft power left when trying to convince states in hostile areas to side with us. We've doubled down on Israel so much in the past we've essentially backed ourselves into a corner, a corner that was tightened significantly when we lost "control" of Iran in '79. Israel is also the most heavily armed nuclear power in the middle east, and has one of the most advanced militaries in the world (although that's mostly thanks to us). That is why we continue to support Israel.

I'm not saying these are good reasons, but they're at least actual reasons as opposed to the politicized tripe that's in your linked articles.

[curiousjorge]

is it fair to say that Israel was created as sort of a proxy to impose cold war ideology on the Middle East to counter Soviet Union cozying up and supply arms to the rest of hte middle east?

[tome]

No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland. They deemed a homeland necessary in the light of a couple of thousand years of murderous persecution they have faced pretty much anywhere they have lived (especially Europe and the Middle East).

The creation of Israel is pretty much nothing to do with the US.

[apta]

> No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland.

Why did the Palestenians have to pay the price and get kicked out of their homes then? If anything, Germany should have offered them a home given what the Nazi regime did to them.

[Aqueous]

And yet the President of the United States (and a member of the Democratic Party) just negotiated a deal entirely without the help of the Israel, in fact with a lot of hand-wringing and public protest from Israel and its leadership, a deal which Israel is very publicly angry about despite it being arguably in their self-interest to defuse tension within the Middle East.

Doesn't seem so much like we're in the pocket of Israel, at least not anymore.

[discardorama]

"In the pocket of" is a broad statement.

Most of the _politicians_ in this country give undue importance to Israel. cf, Hillary's recent statement that she'll be better for Israel. They seem to fall over themselves to out-hawk the hawkish Israelis.

As far as the Iran deal is concerned: many top Israelis are actually in favor of this deal. See:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/06/efraim-halevy-netan...

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/i...

[Aqueous]

Yes. When I say "us" and "Israel" I'm referring to politicians who make up the leadership of both countries, and therefore are in the position to make decisions on behalf of both countries. I do not mean to generalize about the many diverse viewpoints that the people of both countries hold.

[dragontamer]

Half of the country is. It bothers me greatly that the Republican Party would be more willing to listen to Bibi Netanyahu over President Obama.

Israel is still a foreign country who spied on us regularly. I don't have much trust in them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

[judah]

>> "despite it being arguably in [Israel's] best self-interest to defuse tension within the Middle East."

Israel and its backers don't like the Iran deal because it enables the Islamic Republic to gain nuclear weapons, which its powerful religious leaders hope to use on Israel.

And history has taught Jews to take threats to our existence seriously.

[discardorama]

Here we go again. I'm sure you'll point to Ahmedinajad's "wipe it off the map" speech again?

Mossad's former chief himself supports the deal. I would trust him over a politician any day: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4644691,00.html

[Udik]

Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can help spread our basic values about democratic government".

Good luck with that! You couldn't have given a better explanation for the rise of fundamentalism and terrorism in the ME.

[bsaul]

There's a much simpler answer to what those values are : freedom of speech, sexual orientation, and religion.

They're basicaly the reason refugees go from the east to the west, and not the other way around.

[rayiner]

Yes, Democracy has nothing to do with how a country uses its military power to further its interests, or how a country cooperates or does not within an international framework. Arguably, a country that ignores resolutions of unelected bodies like the UN in response to the popular will is more democratic, not less.

[Retric]

Historically the US has done all of that. Remember, we developed nuclear weapons and are the only country that has actually used them in warfare.

We have also developed and used biological and chemical weapons. Hell, for a recent example after signing a convention banning using laser weapons to blind people we got rid of our prototype laser weapons to blind people.

[ReadingInBed]

That's actually exactly why US and Israel make great allies. Both have great interest in aggressive imperialist foreign policies with little international oversight. I think the best chance of the US breaking away from Israel internationally is to change foreign policy in the US, versus specifically targeting Israel.

Edit: I'd like to add that I am not trying to make value judgements here. I'm not arguing that either the US or Israel foreign policy is bad or good, just very similar.

[anigbrowl]

Really, I think they're our ally because we guarantee their security and they function as a counterbalance to other nations int he region which might more naturally align with Russia.

Israel is democratic but I feel only about 10% more than Iran. I'm really not sure how well they promulgate our basic values about democracy, or to the extent that they do, whether those basic values are good ones - one could view democracy in both countries as being a figleaf for militarist expansionism, for example. I feel it's more informative to look on our relationship with Israel from a pragmatic rather than an idealist perspective.

That said, both Israel and Iran have a great deal more in common with the US than a country like Saudi Arabia does. I continue to wonder how long we can thread that particular needle.

[selimthegrim]

Quoth Sheldon Adelson: "So what if Israel isn't a democracy (in the future). Who cares?"

[maratd]

> The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange

There's nothing strange about it. Yes, it is militarily aggressive and has to be considering the neighborhood.

The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote in the region, provides military support when needed, and a plethora of other various benefits which none of the other players in the region are able to provide.

As far as the "strangeness" is concerned, with rampant antisemitism in Europe, I supposed it would look strange when that hobby isn't shared elsewhere?

[glenndebacker]

> The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote

Call me cynical but I think it has more to do with the million of dollars that an organisation like AIPAC contribute to American politicians than that the same values are in play.

>> with rampant antisemitism in Europe

The problem is that any criticism on Israel is automatically classified as antisemitic. Have something to say about the illegal settlements ? It's antisemitic. Say something about the constant war mongering ? It's antisemitic. Don't like netanyahu wardrobe? antisemitic.

You have jewish organisations literal stating that any criticism against the state of Israel is automatically antisemitic of nature. In those circumstances it isn't that difficult to have "rampant antisemitism" in Europe.

Some – not all – take it also extremely far. I remember a couple of years ago there was a big uproar here in Belgium because a cooking show was presenting Hitlers favorite dish, a trout. You guessed it...the show was suddenly antisemitic.

When I was younger a surviver of the holocaust visited my class to speak about the things he have witnessed and the hardship he encountered. He talked about how we should value peace and our freedom. 20 years later I still remember his testimony as it had a big positive impact on my life. I honestly don't think he had these things in mind.

It sickens me how antisemitism or the WW2 atrocities are abused sometimes just to have no healthy discussion.

[dingaling]

> rampant antisemitism

Both Arabs and the tribes of Israel are Semitic people.

I think you mean anti-Israeli. One can be opposed to the actions and policies of a state without referencing its inhabitants or their religious notions.

[maratd]

> I think you mean anti-Israeli.

No, I think I mean anti-Jew. I don't think they care where the Jew comes from.

> One can be opposed to the actions and policies of a state without referencing its inhabitants or their religious notions.

Absolutely.

But when those same actions and policies are undertaken by numerous other regimes in the region to a far worse degree and those same actions and policies are not criticized when coming from those other regimes ... one must wonder what motivates those pointing the finger.

[mark_l_watson]

The phrase should be "anti Israeli government"

Seriously, few people are critical of people in other countries but many people are properly critical of governments. There are dozens of governments around the world that I disapprove of, but I wish blessings and a good life to the people in those countries.

[Systemic33]

> with rampant antisemitism in Europe

Because Israel isn't escalating this at all with the palestine conflict...

Netanyahu is a warmongerer that keeps the conflict alive, because it serves his interests, in increasing antisemitism, resulting in jews feeling increasingly threatened, and starts to consider relocation to Israel, increasing support for Netanyahu.

[mark_l_watson]

To be fair, this is not all the Israel government's fault.

USA defense contractors make a ton of money, that originates with the U.S. tax payer, by selling weapon systems to Israel. Powerful economic interests in the USA want the unfortunate situation in that area to continue. There is a lot of money to be made in war, unfortunately.

[bsaul]

Jews don't feel threatened because of netanyahu, but because of antisemites ( this word has an historical meaning, which is why i'm using it).

And unfortunately, antisemitism doesn't take its root in the palestinian conflict, but in religious books ( both christian and muslims). Which are much older than Israel, and won't change no matter the number of square kilometers of the palestinian state.

[thwest]

> Yes, it is militarily aggressive and has to be considering the neighborhood.

Citation needed. If we grant Israel its claimed borders, it has only ever witnessed domestic terrorism, never territorial aggression from neighboring states.

[tome]

Of course it has experienced territorial aggression from its neighbours. Israel has fought three wars against its total annihilation in its 70 years of existence. If the arabs had won one of those wars there wouldn't be an Israel anymore.

[Udik]

>rampant antisemitism in Europe

rampant bullshit. The only antisemitism in Europe is that which is cried out loud by Israelis and Jewish lobbies every time Israel's actions are criticized. It's frankly sickening.

[maratd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AltyhmrIFgo

[Udik]

Oooh, the guy walked with a kippah on his head through the muslim quarters of Paris for 10 hours, and what he got? A few mocking comments from the racaille, and a "Vive Palestine!". That's really a Kristallnacht situation here. Given what Israel is doing in Palestine, I'd have expected more.

You might want to repeat the exercise in one of the black quarters of New York, with a white guy walking alone through them for 10 hours, and check the level of dangerous anti-caucasianism in the USA. Much higher, I suspect.

[maratd]

> You might want to repeat the exercise in one of the black quarters of New York, with a white guy walking alone through them for 10 hours

Been there, done that. Nobody yelled anything at me or spat at me.

> That's really a Kristallnacht situation here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_%C3%8Ele-de-France_attack...

It must all be my imagination.

[Udik]

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_%C3%8Ele-de-France_attack.... >It must all be my imagination.

That was a terrorist attack, not racism. I'd never say that in the US there is a rampant racism just because a teenager went to a church full of black people and opened fire on them. That would add insult to injury. The whole France has been victim of that terrorist attack, just as the whole USA was victim of the Charleston shooting.

[nnbvv]

Haha, haven't been around many black people eh? I've lived in and walked around in many black neighbourhoods, and I have never had any bad experiences.

[tome]

What an utter bunch of nonsense. Israel's military takes the most care to protect civilian lives of any military, probably any military ever in history. But if you want to castigate Israel for responding at all to rocket attacks on its civilians then please go ahead and do so.