[rayiner]

> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes),

Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g. the Roman Republic). Democracy is not a matter of being the "good guy" or the "bad guy" but a matter of how people relate to each other and the government.

[discardorama]

> Israel is our ally ...

... because a large number of conservative Americans believe that Jesus is not going to come unless Israel is ruled by a Jewish king (or something like that; see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?p... )

... because a large number of donors to the Republican (and Democratic) parties are wealthy Jewish folk. And we know that in the US, money talks when it comes to policy.

As a result, most politicians feel the need to pander to the hardliners in Israel: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-jewish...

[pdeuchler]

Wait, are you serious?

While the partition plan was ostensibly created by the UN, it was more or less completely designed and pushed through by the US. Israel, for all intents and purposes, is a US created state. Not only would the failure of Israel leave a huge black eye on US foreign policy, but Israel is also one of our most publicized allies. If we were to allow Israel to be overrun by an Arab consortium we would have zero soft power left when trying to convince states in hostile areas to side with us. We've doubled down on Israel so much in the past we've essentially backed ourselves into a corner, a corner that was tightened significantly when we lost "control" of Iran in '79. Israel is also the most heavily armed nuclear power in the middle east, and has one of the most advanced militaries in the world (although that's mostly thanks to us). That is why we continue to support Israel.

I'm not saying these are good reasons, but they're at least actual reasons as opposed to the politicized tripe that's in your linked articles.

[curiousjorge]

is it fair to say that Israel was created as sort of a proxy to impose cold war ideology on the Middle East to counter Soviet Union cozying up and supply arms to the rest of hte middle east?

[tome]

No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland. They deemed a homeland necessary in the light of a couple of thousand years of murderous persecution they have faced pretty much anywhere they have lived (especially Europe and the Middle East).

The creation of Israel is pretty much nothing to do with the US.

[apta]

> No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland.

Why did the Palestenians have to pay the price and get kicked out of their homes then? If anything, Germany should have offered them a home given what the Nazi regime did to them.

[tome]

Well that's a separate question which I don't have a complete answer for, but I will note that the number of displaced people at the formation of Israel is not particularly notable given the sizes of population transfers that happened around that time for the formation, or reformation, of nation states.

[Aqueous]

And yet the President of the United States (and a member of the Democratic Party) just negotiated a deal entirely without the help of the Israel, in fact with a lot of hand-wringing and public protest from Israel and its leadership, a deal which Israel is very publicly angry about despite it being arguably in their self-interest to defuse tension within the Middle East.

Doesn't seem so much like we're in the pocket of Israel, at least not anymore.

[discardorama]

"In the pocket of" is a broad statement.

Most of the _politicians_ in this country give undue importance to Israel. cf, Hillary's recent statement that she'll be better for Israel. They seem to fall over themselves to out-hawk the hawkish Israelis.

As far as the Iran deal is concerned: many top Israelis are actually in favor of this deal. See:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/06/efraim-halevy-netan...

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/i...

[Aqueous]

Yes. When I say "us" and "Israel" I'm referring to politicians who make up the leadership of both countries, and therefore are in the position to make decisions on behalf of both countries. I do not mean to generalize about the many diverse viewpoints that the people of both countries hold.

[dragontamer]

Half of the country is. It bothers me greatly that the Republican Party would be more willing to listen to Bibi Netanyahu over President Obama.

Israel is still a foreign country who spied on us regularly. I don't have much trust in them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

[judah]

>> "despite it being arguably in [Israel's] best self-interest to defuse tension within the Middle East."

Israel and its backers don't like the Iran deal because it enables the Islamic Republic to gain nuclear weapons, which its powerful religious leaders hope to use on Israel.

And history has taught Jews to take threats to our existence seriously.

[discardorama]

Here we go again. I'm sure you'll point to Ahmedinajad's "wipe it off the map" speech again?

Mossad's former chief himself supports the deal. I would trust him over a politician any day: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4644691,00.html

[Udik]

Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can help spread our basic values about democratic government".

Good luck with that! You couldn't have given a better explanation for the rise of fundamentalism and terrorism in the ME.

[bsaul]

There's a much simpler answer to what those values are : freedom of speech, sexual orientation, and religion.

They're basicaly the reason refugees go from the east to the west, and not the other way around.

[rayiner]

Yes, Democracy has nothing to do with how a country uses its military power to further its interests, or how a country cooperates or does not within an international framework. Arguably, a country that ignores resolutions of unelected bodies like the UN in response to the popular will is more democratic, not less.

[Retric]

Historically the US has done all of that. Remember, we developed nuclear weapons and are the only country that has actually used them in warfare.

We have also developed and used biological and chemical weapons. Hell, for a recent example after signing a convention banning using laser weapons to blind people we got rid of our prototype laser weapons to blind people.

[ReadingInBed]

That's actually exactly why US and Israel make great allies. Both have great interest in aggressive imperialist foreign policies with little international oversight. I think the best chance of the US breaking away from Israel internationally is to change foreign policy in the US, versus specifically targeting Israel.

Edit: I'd like to add that I am not trying to make value judgements here. I'm not arguing that either the US or Israel foreign policy is bad or good, just very similar.

[anigbrowl]

Really, I think they're our ally because we guarantee their security and they function as a counterbalance to other nations int he region which might more naturally align with Russia.

Israel is democratic but I feel only about 10% more than Iran. I'm really not sure how well they promulgate our basic values about democracy, or to the extent that they do, whether those basic values are good ones - one could view democracy in both countries as being a figleaf for militarist expansionism, for example. I feel it's more informative to look on our relationship with Israel from a pragmatic rather than an idealist perspective.

That said, both Israel and Iran have a great deal more in common with the US than a country like Saudi Arabia does. I continue to wonder how long we can thread that particular needle.

[selimthegrim]

Quoth Sheldon Adelson: "So what if Israel isn't a democracy (in the future). Who cares?"