[rilita]

Regarding your choice of fields:

1. Name - This is already in emails I get from recruiters

2. Email - Useful since LinkedIn emails typically don't include their actual email

3. Phone Number - Ditto to #1; they typically include it

4. How did you find me - Considering you stated this is in reply to LinkedIn recruiters; LinkedIn?? ...

5. Name of the company - Most recruiters will not share this information until you have gone through the process more. What is to stop you from ignoring them and contacting companies directly once they give this? This is a poor choice and will drive away recruiters. I do see this is not a required field, but that is not obvious at first glance.

6. Location - You should consider converting this into a zipcode lookup or something. If not generic information such as state or city may be entered here. ( or possibly nothing/bogus info )

7. Job title - Often recruiters have multiple positions available depending on your experience and fit. Also job title doesn't necessarily mean anything. Half of the jobs I have had had no job title.

8. Job description - This is usually provided in the email I get from recruiters. That said, sometimes they don't so I can see the use. You might consider adding "Required skills" as a question also.

9. Yearly salary before taxes - This is a required field. If I were a recruiter I would ignore you at this point. You should be more interested in the opportunity not the exact pay. This looks like a money grab. Having a good career is more important than a dollar figure. Better than this would be a set of ranges; then you can ignore all requests in the ranges you would not accept. Gets you similar info but avoids the insult.

[mathgeek]

> You should be more interested in the opportunity not the exact pay. This looks like a money grab. Having a good career is more important than a dollar figure.

If you're already in a position that you enjoy, the dollar figure is certainly one of, if not the most important items on a cold call job offer. Asking them to open the discussion with a rough number is more than fair, in my book.

[rilita]

I would never hire someone with this perspective. Quality of the position and the ability to enjoy it and work hard without stressing is way more important than pay in my book.

[throwaway12309]

No wonder there is a tech shortage. "I want people that don't care about money so I can treat them like slaves" YAY Go Tech! /s

[rilita]

We don't need more tech people. We need more tech people who give a shit about their jobs besides getting paid.

[throwaway12309]

Why? Not being an asshole, seriously wondering?

Let's assume we have two people, and for sake of discussion, both will only work 8 hours a day. Do you think enthusiasm will trump experience and profissionalism?

I don't follow the latest trends in frameworks/languages, I like solid solutions over start up mentality of ship fast and think over the problems and design good solutions for my clients. I work with SV startups that have all these people that 'care' but I'm still called to clean up their shit. And because of this, I make very very good money. I still won't work more than 8 hours a day, and except for a couple hours to unwind (HN, news, reddit) I don't even touch the computer and spend the time with my family/community. And I can tell you, if sweeping streets paid me more, I would be sweeping streets. I don't give a fuck about the work I do. Want me to work on oil platform, if you pay me, sure! A social network for gerbils, if you pay me, sure! HFT, if you pay me, sure!

[brazzledazzle]

Since someone who's gainfully employed and considers pay a prevailing factor wouldn't really be compatible with you it sounds like including that would effectively keep someone like them and someone like you from wasting each other's time.

In your position I'd be appreciative of that sort of honesty instead of encouraging folks to hide it since you have very different priorities.

[russelluresti]

You know what can make your life really stressful? The inability to pay rent or afford clothes/food for your spouse and kids.

Pay is hugely important in determining your quality of life. You can't just completely ignore the subject.

If the job opportunity being offered doesn't pay enough for you to afford your house or apartment, you can write it off no matter how interesting you might find the work.

[marktangotango]

The quality of your hires will reflect this.

[rilita]

Note I did not say that I would not pay my developers what they are worth. I am saying I would not put it out there initially in emails. If I stated I pay well publicly it would just attract money grubbing morons.

[s73v3r]

And I would never work for someone with your perspective, cause you're just looking for a sucker to lowball and overwork.

And pay level is a huge contributor to stress levels.

[rilita]

I've seen people happily work at much lower pay then they deserve. I've also seen people work at higher pay then they are worth and still be miserable. Pay isn't all that.

[ryan-c]

Re asking recruiters about salary - it's about not wasting everyone's time. If someone's happy with their current job and would need a substantial pay increase to consider leaving it, then it is a waste of both their time and the recruiters time if the salary requirements can't be met. I would change that field's description to include "approximate", though.

The most negative reaction I've ever gotten to something like "I'm happy with my job, and it would take a salary somewhere in the ballpark of $X to tempt me away, is that feasible?" was "If you're making anywhere near $X now I'm impressed.". The number I give for $X varies a little depending on their pitch - for example it goes up by at least $100k if they mention that they're looking for someone manage compliance for PCI-DSS, HIPPA, SOX or similar.

[Kevin_S]

Can you tell me more about the last part? I am interning currently with an information security consulting company and most of what I will be doing is working on PCI-DSS audits. Accounting/Econ degree, I am having trouble finding salary ranges for professionals in this area.

[ryan-c]

There's a lot less people in security than in software engineering, and paranoia comes with the field, so the data really isn't very good. I'm also not entry level. I don't want to do compliance stuff because none of the people I've talked to seem happy with it - the salary range I quote for being willing to do that sort of work is fairly far beyond what I expect to get.

[sqldba]

"Opportunity"! Opportunity to work for less while the recruiter sits there earning a fat fee for merely passing on my resume? No thanks.

I love how everyone thinks their job is some amazing opportunity but won't back it up with something useful you can put towards maybe buying a place to live, like money.

[rilita]

Recruiters don't merely pass on resumes. They work hard to find viable candidates and to tolerate their crappy attitudes when they are trying to help place people in good jobs.

[ufmace]

I don't know about the overall market for recruiters, but it doesn't look that way to most developers, since the crappy recruiters tend to spam everyone who sounds vaguely qualified for the position based on a keyword search on Linkedin, Google, Github, etc. Any good recruiters who are actually working hard to find viable candidates for a position tend to get lost in the noise.

[rilita]

I have interacted to a meaningful extent with at least 10 different major recruiting firms, and I can tell you that it varies greatly. There are lots of ones that suck, but some of them are actually quite good and respond well and work for you if you actually talk to them and explain what you are looking for.

Hating on all recruiters since a large percentage of them suck isn't fair.

[chadgeidel]

In my experience this has not been the case.

[TeMPOraL]

> Most recruiters will not share this information until you have gone through the process more. What is to stop you from ignoring them and contacting companies directly once they give this?

Common courtesy. Not giving company name is a sign that the deal with the recruiter will likely not be a "win-win" arrangement.

> This is a poor choice and will drive away recruiters.

I think that's sort of a point of that form. There's way too much recruiter spam in tech, so it's good for you to get rid of the more exploiting ones.

> You should be more interested in the opportunity not the exact pay. This looks like a money grab. Having a good career is more important than a dollar figure.

I don't think this really applies to most programming jobs; the current trend in tech is to switch a job every couple of years.

[rilita]

I agree it is reasonable to share the company name once you express interest. It is not reasonable to need it to decide whether you will even speak to the recruiter.

If your desire is just to weed out recruiters, why not just say "fuck off" and see which ones still persist. This is nearly equivalent.

The whole attitude of "I want to know the salary since I intend to switch again in a couple of years" is exactly why I wouldn't hire people with this attitude.

[TeMPOraL]

> I agree it is reasonable to share the company name once you express interest. It is not reasonable to need it to decide whether you will even speak to the recruiter.

Fair enough.

> If your desire is just to weed out recruiters, why not just say "fuck off" and see which ones still persist. This is nearly equivalent.

That's actually the reverse filter - it would weed out the ones you'd like to talk about, and leave out spammers.

> The whole attitude of "I want to know the salary since I intend to switch again in a couple of years" is exactly why I wouldn't hire people with this attitude.

In tech, most people you're recruiting already have a job. So I want to know the salary as an input for consideration if I care to leave my current position.

This circles back to the company name issue - if I am to treat a new job primarily as an "opportunity" for doing something good/interesting, I'll need to know a lot more than just what kind of skills they're looking for. I'd like to do my own research, and for that, I need the company name.

[rilita]

You would be surprised at recruiters tolerance for being told off. I have experimented with some and they actually take it very well. They are human beings, as long as you are real they will respond in term.

I don't say something like that until they know me a bit though. I have asked my current consultant group "What happens if I tell you to fuck off?" The guy responded "Well I wouldn't like it, but you do your job well and I wouldn't take it personally."

[mrweasel]

5. is interesting, I honestly never considered your reasoning, but it makes sense. It also backfires though, I wouldn't talk to recruiter that wouldn't tells me the name of the company. There are companies that I wouldn't want to work for. They are usually the same companies that outsource recruitment, so it works out okay.

> Having a good career is more important than a dollar figure

I consider a decent salary part of a good career. If it was just about doing stuff I care about I wouldn't work at all, I could do all those things without a job. Giving at least a salary range would be expected.

[rilita]

While I agree you need to know the company before accepting; the goal of recruiters primarily is to give you some limited information and then see if you are willing to talk on the phone. A short phone call is the best most efficient way to handle recruiters. You can have a frank conversation and determine exactly how valuable they are in a short period of time.

Dragging on initial email crap does not truly handle the situation.

As stated already, I think a range is reasonable. Asking the exact number is not.

[kenrikm]

9. I disagree you're wasting everyone's time if the numbers are way too far apart. I.E they would like to pay 80k+ Options when you're currently @ 130k + Vested Options.

[rrrx3]

Agree with this. Most recruiters just spam. If you reply and theres a 50k spread on what you need vs what they're offering, time has been wasted on both parts.

[tomjen3]

I wouldn't even waste the harddrive space for a database entry unless I knew the exact location where I would be working and the name of the company that I would be working at. Most companies are bullshit and I have a very low tolerance for that or commuting (since length of commute is inversely correlated with happiness).

No, I am not going to go outside and apply directly - I wouldn't get a higher salary that way.

[rilita]

"I have a low tolerance for bullshit" You should totally add that to your resume. I am sure it will get you far in life.

[dennisvdvliet]

I did not intend for it to be taking so seriously. It is more a mirror for the recruitment business and the fact that they on occasions spam people big time.

[rfrey]

It's an insult to ask what the pay is?

Do you think the recruiter asks the employer? If so, there are two possible reasons: because it's pertinent information for candidates, or because the recruiter gets paid based on that info. If the former, no insult. If the latter, the recruiter is in familiar territory if so "insulted" by the candidate.

[rilita]

Yes it is. Many companies doing direct hire ( going past recruiters entirely ) will drop you as a candidate entirely if you ask for salary too soon in the process.

[Karunamon]

Sounds like another awful BS filter with a high false positive rate, like the outfits that require you to submit a resume, and then painstakingly duplicate that information into a set of form fields (one or the other sure, but both?)

For the most part, people are working to get paid. I see absolutely no need to sugar coat or dance around this simple fact.

[chadgeidel]

Excellent. I wouldn't want to work for that company anyway. Recruitment goes both ways.

[s73v3r]

Sucks for them. They came to me, they need me, not the other way around. Thus, they have to appease me. That's the way markets work.

[s73v3r]

"Yearly salary before taxes - This is a required field. If I were a recruiter I would ignore you at this point. "

And nothing of value would have been lost. Any recruiter that isn't willing to disclose this is looking to lowball you.

[rilita]

Recruiters typically make a percentage based on what you end up getting paid. It is in their best interest for you to be paid more not less. The only reason they would pay less is to try to get people into a position to which they don't otherwise fit well.