[eep_opp]

I recently worked for a company that expected employees to stay well pass 5pm. I was personally working 13 or 14 hours a day and having to occasionally volunteer my time on weekends. My salary in comparison to hours worked went down significantly.

Anyway, I did what most of the men described in the article did. I learned how to work without working. It was easy to copy the kind of workaholic appearance expressed by many of my peers.

The strange thing was that most everyone was pretending. Everyone was just lying. It was like there was some secret unwritten rule that we should pretend instead of talking about the obvious elephant in the room. Which was that we were asked too much of us and that needed to change.

When I was first starting out (way before I took that job) I was told that the idea is to "manage perception" and that appears to be true of a few places.

[wesleytodd]

> When I was first starting out (way before I took that job) I was told that the idea is to "manage perception" and that appears to be true of a few places.

I have been giving this advice to quite a few people lately, both inside and outside my company.

As a manager I feel that my team's productivity benefits more from "work hygiene" than from long hours, but we have a few team members who have come under scrutiny because of perceived short hours.

My advice to them is always, "I trust that you are doing your best as a part of the team. But remember, the teams perception is what matters. And when you leave at 3 it looks like you are slacking. No one knows you got here at 6 because they weren't here. So rather than changing your behavior, work on changing their perception."

[frostirosti]

It's really sad to see that people have all but forgotten how hard our grandparents and great grandparents fought to have a 40 hour work week. It's also sad that while our GDP has gone up so little of that prosperity has translated into better living/working conditions.

[enraged_camel]

>>It's really sad to see that people have all but forgotten how hard our grandparents and great grandparents fought to have a 40 hour work week.

Yep. And people here harp on unions a lot, but we owe two-day weekends to unions.

[knd775]

I don't think that many people believe that unions were always unnecessary. They were vital in a time where employers could just do what they wanted. Nowadays, though, unions are built on greed and laziness.

[jjoonathan]

That's certainly the perception, but I still have to wonder how true it is vs how much is propaganda. Still, even if it is true that unions weren't necessary for a period of time, they most certainly have become necessary once again:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottwinship/2014/10/20/has-ineq...

How else do you interpret "the wedge" except as the failure of labor to advocate strongly enough for its interests?

[s73v3r]

And big companies aren't? They aren't built on greed and squeezing every last bit of productivity out of someone for the absolute minimum they can pay?

Seriously, the only reason people have that perception is because big companies have the money to run smear campaigns against labor.

[normloman]

I hear what you're saying, but staying at work longer, is still shitty. The point of leaving work is so you can tend to your matters at home - family, chores, pursuing your own interests. A long break in the middle of the day won't fix that - you'll simply waste more time on the internet.

(I'm doing that right now.)

[wesleytodd]

Certainly not saying the setup is something to aspire to. But we have to deal with the cards we were dealt.

My goal as a manager is to promote better work hygiene in my employees. Which was supposed to be the point of my comment, probably should have left off how I personally have dealt with this.

[darkmarmot]

I am so glad you're not my manager. My team just got a Team of the Year award -- and we are completely results-oriented. I usually get to the office by 10, leave whenever I feel like it. We only care about skill and productivity. We would fire someone who hung around the office in order to meet a perception...

[cullenking]

The employee can still leave at 3pm, but maybe he shoots off a couple of his team-oriented emails at 6:30am. That shows he's indeed working early, so leaving early isn't weird.

One of my employees does this by spending the morning hours managing his inbox and otherwise catching up. Additionally, he always makes a fresh pot of coffee right when getting in. The coffee maker has a 2 hour heat timer, so when it dings at 8:30am it's a clear indication he was in the office early.

You don't have to be blatant. He isn't, but he's well known as the guy in the office that likes working super early, and no one gets bent when he steps out of the office by 4pm. They occasionally whine about how it's unfair he's a morning person and gets to enjoy the afternoon sun, but it's jovial joking about their night owl habits compared to his morning habits.

Basically, having a good team that understands and respects each other is the key. If you don't have that you miss out on many of the good parts.

[wesleytodd]

This was a much better way to make my point. Thanks, because this is exactly what I meant.

[protonfish]

Your goal as a manager should be to deliver the perception that everything is great to your superiors and not put it on the backs of your team members. If they have to stay after to impress your boss, then you have failed.

[tinkerdol]

> But we have to deal with the cards we were dealt

Are you sure about that? You're a manager. Responding to your parent comment about managing worker's perceptions of their team members: In the case that someone wants to leave at 3 because they got there at 6, why not just explain to everyone that it is, in fact, okay (or even encouraged)?

[wesleytodd]

There is a difference between a manager and owner. I am taking the hit because I can and because it keeps up the expectations of the owners. Sadly it is hard to escape the "butts in chairs" mentality when you pay people >5 figure salaries.

[s73v3r]

No, your job is to communicate to those other assholes that your team member isn't slacking; that he was here at 6 in the morning.

[wesleytodd]

And to help them communicate that better in the future.

[normloman]

If you're the manager, can you sway the owners into relaxing hours? Have you tried?

[wesleytodd]

HAHA, yeah can't picture that conversation going well:

"Hey guys, I know we are an non-profitable early-stage startup, but do you think we could all try to stick to 8 hour work days?"

[toomuchtodo]

Then why stay? Why waste quality of life for a startup lottery ticket that data has repeatedly shown will most likely fail? Being a non-profitable early stage startup is no excuse to run the place like a slave ship.

[s73v3r]

Do you have a significant ownership stake in the company? If not, then why the fuck are you killing yourself working all this free overtime for nothing?

[vinceguidry]

I had an interesting conversation with my boss a few weeks ago. I had been leaving earlier just to test the waters, working 10-5. I caught my boss outside the office on our way out at 5, he asked me about how my "schedule seemed to be changing. Nobody's said anything so far but..." I said that I was "working really hard and was getting fried at the end of the day. I could just sit at my desk..." and he was quick to say, "No, don't do that! I'll let you know if it becomes a problem, and in the meanwhile we'll just have an unofficial policy." I nodded in agreement, then went home and adjusted my attitude towards work to "go in whenever the hell I want to go in and leave around 5-ish or whenever I want to leave."

I actually feel like I'd be bothering my boss by asking him to leave early. Sometimes he asks me if I'll be in at 3pm or whatever for some meeting that may or may not move a needle, just to send the message that no, I'm not expected to be at my desk all day.

Because my work generally impacts no one else in the company, unless there's a fire I rarely interact with them on anything other than a social level, no one knows or cares when I get in or leave. It's just a perception-management game that I'm pretty good at. Projecting competence goes a very long way towards allowing you leeway to claw back on expectations.

[mpdehaan2]

Perception is also something that is taught. If everyone puts in 12 hours, 12 hours becomes the norm. I really dislike working for organizations that care more about the perception than the reality, and it's my advice that folks try to avoid those (or leave them).

It's better to not condition your manager to think this is acceptable early on, or it quickly becomes something you can be forced to do regularly.

I do agree that if that's the case, you definitely shouldn't be putting in a continuous 12, because it's almost guaranteed your management isn't.

The worse case is when they want presence, and as a result, people stay at work long hours reloading the internet. There's no point in that, which is why it's important to just measure results, not effort.

[brianwawok]

So you spend 4h extra away from your family to look good to coworkers? That seems a symptom not a cure.

[mpdehaan2]

Yeah, IMHO it's good to learn quickly that other people's perceptions of you - if they don't achieve results that you need them to, don't matter. Making sure you are happy is the most important thing. Trying to make people you don't respect respect you and is also kind of a terrible thing to force yourself to do, it feels like selling your soul every single second. It's worse when the people you are trying to get to respect you already don't, so it's better to drop the illusion. Care about helping people who care that you are helping them.

[wesleytodd]

Agreed. Luckily I am 28 and don't have kids yet. Hopefully I will get to a point before I do have kids where I can be a little more free.

[imaginenore]

You could spend that 4 hours developing a side project. 4 hours a day is a LOT of time.

[wesleytodd]

Often times that is what I am doing during my breaks. Resolving github issues or answering side project emails. So it really all does work out.

[v13inc]

There is potentially a big legal difference between tinkering on your side projects at work, compared to carving out time for them at home. Unless you have a specific exemption in your contract, then your employer owns all your work that you do in the office or on their equipment.

[stefantalpalaru]

You'll get in legal trouble if you do that on company time and on company premises.

[imaginenore]

No, I mean, you can go home after 8 hours (or whatever your contract says), and work on your own shit.

[anon4]

My reply to that would be "I'm working with adults, not babies". If your team can't deal with seeing someone leave early, then you should fire me. I honestly wouldn't mind, there's plenty of work around here.

[skywhopper]

If you're the type to leave at three, it helps to send lots of emails as soon as you start working. People notice timestamps earlier than 6am.

[wesleytodd]

This was my most recent specific recommendation, just send out an email right when you get in. Maybe do a peer review or push a commit. Anything small that shows the team you were there doing work.

[marktangotango]

Then you prep it the day before so you just have hit send, then you script it, cron it and sleep in:)

[erikb]

And how do you work on your perception if you come there at 6am and leave at 3pm?

[scrabble]

Where I work now, I got talked to because I was working too much. Working over 40 hours / week was a problem. But my boss' attitude has changed somewhere.

He has always said, "I don't track butt in chair time. That doesn't matter. What matters is that you get work done."

People lived that. They got their work done and work was fairly flexible and happy.

The message has changed to "I don't track butt time. As long as you are here 40 hours / week, you can spend as much additional time working as you want."

Not surprisingly, unhappiness has increased significantly and productivity has taken a corresponding hit.

[joshguthrie]

Did the switch (and switched companies) the other way around: I've never been happier. My CTO even gave me the day off yesterday to spend time with my girlfriend I hadn't seen in two weeks.

[zimpenfish]

It's similar here - I leave pretty much when my timer clicks over 8 hours (don't take a lunch hour - 20 minutes tops if Tesco is busy) and people are definitely glaring at me.

[marktangotango]

At one job we had set hours 8:30 to 5:00, I was ALWAYS the first one out; packed and walking at 5:00:00. It became a joke, my line was, I'm the first to leave so no one else would suffer the stigma, taking the hit for the team. Our manager was not pleased, but my work quality was good, so he lightened up after a while. That company later tanked by the way, entire IT staff was laid off. I had left for greener pastures long before.

[danielweber]

I was at a job about a year ago where a project missed deadline, like all the engineers said it would, and management said that the engineers needed to put in 11.5 hour days.

We did. But we didn't get much done on those days, like anyone could have told you happens with knowledge work.

All those engineers, including me, are now gone from there.