[declan]

Teslas are in line with other luxury sedans (of course you may view all of those are insanely expensive). The 60 starts at $64K, cash price counting tax credits, and the P85 is $96K.

Compare that with the starting prices of the BMW 5-series, $50K (base) to $94K (M5). The Porsche Panamera is $78K to $180K starting price. The Model S has been tested against the Mercedes S550, which starts at $94K.

If you look at the performance of the P85D, especially its horsepower and torque, you arguably get far more for your money than you do with any petrol-powered sedan. It's even quicker than the Panamera Turbo.

I prefer lighter vehicles -- the P85D is 50% heavier than my RWD manual transmission'd sports car -- but if I needed a sedan Tesla would now be my default choice.

[rsync]

Tesla performance is astounding - better than many cars that are $250k and more.

Tesla interior/luxury/comfort is astonishingly low. All mid-ranged luxury cars (A6, 5-Series, E-class, etc.) are much, much nicer cars to drive in, and many of the lower end (3 series, C class) have nicer interiors as well.

[declan]

On the performance point, you're quite right on 0-60 speeds. Electric motors, all-wheel drive, and smart launch control will give you excellent times.

On a track, though, where weight and handling matter so much, I wonder what the performance would be. The Tesla Model S (Performance Model) and the Tesla Roadster have essentially the same lap time around Laguna Seca as a humble VW Golf and Ford Focus -- and all four are comfortably beaten by a $30K Subaru WRX STi. Source: http://my.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/model-s-laguna-seca-l...

Now that was likely not the P85D, but that model's extra performance will be offset by the extra 300lbs and curb weight of approximately 5000(!) lbs. It may be helped by a more even front/rear weight distribution and AWD. (I admit I've spent the last three days on the track at Laguna Seca, so I may be overly fixated on lap times...)

This is not to take away from Tesla's remarkable accomplishments in such a short time. The P85D is an amazing car.

[saiya-jin]

Track times are irrelevant achievement for 99% of people here (or anywhere), general handling performance not so much. Not only makes it driving experience much more pleasure, it also increases safety (in those crazy split-second-maneuvers situations which might end up in car crash if things go wrong). It also increases general stability of vehicle, and so on.

My personal opinion - this is clearly future. I am glad for early adopters, to support this trend and this particular "disruptive" company, to benefits of us all and our kids.

Present - not so much for me. I run 10 year old 3-litre diesel bmw 3-series, which was dirt cheap few years ago, and costs me nearly nothing to run (oil & xenon light bulbs change). Various state and insurance fees are most of expenses. These cars cannot compete on this segment (higher-middle class sedans), not in fun factor (ie that handling), not in price, not in reach - living in europe, I go quite frequently to road trips of several thousand kms... good luck with charging car along in present europe. It happened to me a few times I almost ran out of gas on remote german highways!

So far, it's luxury city car for me, with vast future potential. As for why I should need a luxury city car, I have no clue...

[Klathmon]

The Model S actually doesn't do well on a track at all. Not because of any weight/handling issues (i'm actually not sure about how it handles), but because of overheating.

The electric motors can't dissipate heat that quick, and if the engines are run at "full throttle" for too long it will slow performance significantly to keep from overheating.

In reality this means you can't really complete a lap or 2 of most tracks.

[declan]

Ah, you're right. Thanks! Here's a story that describes the problem (and an unsuccessful ice bath attempt):

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/alternative/1404... I coincidentally spoke with a Tesla engineer and explained what had happened. "What you need to do is put the car in something like a big meat locker," he suggested. "Cool it way down first."

[Already__Taken]

Funnily enough I just and a little look and I think the Tesla should just about have more range on one charge than a 2015 STI with a full tank of fuel (15.9 US gal). Though I don't know if I mixed up uk and us gal.

[usaphp]

I am sorry but You just can't compare tesla model s with Mercedes S class in terms of comfort - that's the biggest reason why people purchase an s class merc. In terms of interior quality and ride comfort I can only compare tesla to Toyota camry or Nissan maxima at best. Bmw, Mercedes never mind Porsches are miles ahead in comfort/interior quality departments.

[cbd1984]

How reliable are Teslas compared to Mercedes S class?

Not that being more reliable than a luxury automobile is a huge achievement:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/01/makes-expensive-car...

[csours]

Huge number of features = more to go wrong.

Cutting edge tech = higher risk. (can be mitigated with engineering discipline)

Small production runs = less time to debug production process, which is a 2 edged sword: higher production costs and more built-in defects.

[theunixbeard]

Idiom-related quibble: a "double edged sword" typically refers to something that is both an asset and a liability.

Higher production costs and more built-in defects are two liabilities. A suitable alternative in this case would be a "double whammy". More on that idiom: http://english.stackexchange.com/a/132063

[bryanlarsen]

"Huge number of features = more to go wrong"

You do realize that this is a good argument for the Tesla, right? An electric drivetrain is much simpler than a gasoline one, and in a crazy features battle, the S Class trounces a Tesla.

[saiya-jin]

I heard this from Musk before, on first sight it makes sense. BUT - most current failures in cars are not components that are around for 100 years - these are usually fine if regular service is done. What fails miserably in new cars are all kinds of tech gimmicks that improve significantly with every new generation. The only exception might be turbo charged petrol engines, but they are around for a while too.

[bryanlarsen]

In my personal experience, what breaks on cars is run of the mill stuff that's been around for a long time, like tie rods, brake roters, the exhaust system, et cetera.

[csours]

I honestly wasn't trying to profile for or against Tesla or Ultra-High End luxury. They both may face the same problems.

[ForHackernews]

> of course you may view all of those are insanely expensive

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I do think those are all insanely expensive. Even $64k is more than twice the median annual income in the US, and $78-180k will buy you a decent house in most places that aren't SF/LA/DC/NY.

I can't imagine ever wanting to spend that much money on a depreciating asset that's only major benefit over a $10k Honda Civic is as a status symbol.

I do hope that Tesla succeeds in eventually creating affordable, mass-market electric cars, but it's hard for me to get that excited by their current lineup which serves mainly to help rich dudes feel smug about helping the environment.

[dagw]

depreciating asset that's only major benefit over a $10k Honda Civic is as a status symbol.

Some people think that driving is fun and think of having a car that is fun to drive as a major benefit.

[saiya-jin]

but then you don't go for tesla for proper fun drive, do you ;)

[smackfu]

A Fiesta ST for $22k would meet the "fun to drive" mark.

[mikeash]

But let's say you want to hit multiple marks simultaneously.

I want:

- Comfortable for large people to sit in (I'm 190cm tall).

- Can carry a decent number of people (five being a minimum, more is better... this is why I rejected the Volt as my last car).

- Can carry a decent amount of cargo in addition to 5+ people (this is why I rejected the Ford C-MAX).

- Good fuel efficiency. Prius-level fuel efficiency at a minimum, pure electric is better.

- Good reliability. (Generally the case for most options out there these days, but still important.)

- Good crash safety.

- Fun to drive.

- Affordable.

I'm not too familiar with the Fiesta, but from what I know, it'll hit three of these (fun, reliable, affordable). My last car was a Prius v, which mostly hit all of them except for "fun" (comfort was a bit marginal, there was more than enough room but the seating position was a bit awkward for the driver). When I could afford it, I moved up to the Model S, which hits all marks except for "affordable," and hits most of them better: I can carry 7 people if two of them are small (and they usually are), fuel efficiency is way better, crash safety is among the best, and it's a ton of fun to drive.

It is insanely expensive, and I wish it were cheaper so more people could buy them. But to me, it's worth it.

[easytiger]

> Teslas are in line with other luxury sedan

Yes but their interior, one of the most important parts of a luxury saloon car, is terrible quality. I've been in nicer vans.