[infinotize]

I thought this was a pretty blatant cheap trick the first time I saw it (similar to restaurants putting tip calculations on bills from 18-25% (which are usually post-tax no less!!)) and on the occasion I am in a cab always punch in "Other," or best option pay cash. Automatic deduction for cabbies who often tip themselves and hand you less change without asking - give me my change in full and I'll tip you, thanks.

To add a data point on tipping amounts I would say I usually tip 10-15% for a good cab ride or less for a bad one, or even zero if the driver "screened" my fare (common from yellow cabs in Queens - keeping the doors locked and asking where you are going before letting you in, which is illegal) or takes unnecessary routes, blatantly excessive slowing to hit red lights, etc. I might venture into 20%+ for a good service ride to/from an airport.

Restaurants I stay around 15% for fair or better service, 20% for good, much less than 15% requires the server to be noticably rude or inattentive. Sometimes I do feel like an outlier or cheapskate as the "norm" service for anything feels like it has become 20%, which I find a little ridiculous. I won't not tip because I don't "believe" in the culture of tipping, because all I would be doing is hurt mostly decent workers; at the same time I won't default to a high tip for average service just because other people are doing it. I try to find a middle ground.

[madeofpalk]

> less than 15% requires the server to be noticably rude or inattentive.

As an Australian, in a country that doesn't have a culture of tipping, I find it very amusing that you would tip a server who was noticably rude.

Edit: For context as well, tipping is on the rise up in Australia, but only at classier/fancier/modern/hipster places, and the extent of a tip would be to round up to nearest $10 (or note, if paying cash)

[bunderbunder]

Tipping in the USA goes something beyond just being culture. We've even got it ingrained into our laws. Minimum wage for servers is barely nominal, and much less than what anyone else in the restaurant is making. It's expected that customer tips will form the bulk of their earnings. So if you believe that people deserve to be paid a living wage for their time even when they're not at their best, the status quo places the onus to make sure that happens on you.

[madeofpalk]

The circular reasoning is what gets me - they get less than minimal wage because they earn tips because they get a poor wage because they earn tips because...

[rhino369]

Tipping predates minimum wage law in America. When they were written the laws just took into account the fact that some people get paid in tips.

Americans got the tipping culture from Europe before it faded away in Europe.

[mikecb]

It's a ratchet.

[rahimnathwani]

> the status quo places the onus to make sure that happens on you.

The onus is on the employer, not on the employer's customer. Implementation varies by state: http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

Some states have a higher minimum cash wage (before tips) than the $2.13 mandated by federal law. e.g. in California this is $9 per hour.

In many places, the employer (restaurant) is responsible for topping up the employees' wages if wage+tip doesn't reach the state's normal minimum wage.

[vertex-four]

Of course, there's no real protection against being fired for failing to make enough tips... and for those who make over minimum wage on tips right now, not tipping them amounts to them making less money.

[sukilot]

Do you work for minimum wage? But you expect waiters to smile for it.

[darkarmani]

> We've even got it ingrained into our laws. Minimum wage for servers is barely nominal, and much less than what anyone else in the restaurant is making.

That's only if the tips don't make up the difference to get to minimum wage.

[jacalata]

That's the "ingrained in law" he was talking about. The law assumes tipping, else it wouldn't make sense to have that exception at all.

[darkarmani]

Ok, i agree and don't agree at the same time. The law does make accordance for tipping, but it doesn't assume tipping or it wouldn't require at least the "real" minimum wage.

[zkhalique]

Anyone remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fJCjet2e3U

[joshmn]

Think about it: if we weren't tipping our wait staff, service would be awful, yet, if we paid our wait staff a livable wage, the prices at restaurants would increase ten-fold.

[SilasX]

Restaurant meals aren't 10x more in no-tip countries.

[deciplex]

This line of reasoning needs to come up a lot more, across a wide range of topics from universal health care to cab service and everything in between.

The US is unique in a few ways because it has oceans on either side of it, and is otherwise isolated. In most other respects, what works anywhere else should be expected to work there. If other nations can make restaurants work without forcing employees to take less than a pauper's wage from the owners, and thus depend on cultural norms and customer's generosity to live, then so can America. If other nations can get all their citizens health care, then so can America. If other nations can have elections without spending many billions of dollars, then so can America. And so on.

And if Americans for some reason can't make these things work, it is about time for its people to start looking for the fault within themselves, their government, and their society, rather than discarding the ideas as unworkable, because the rest of the civilized world has already proven them out.

[joshmn]

I might have been exaggerating, but my point is that labor is the most costly thing to restaurants.

I've worked in restaurants and I've waited tables at a very high-level. There are your entry-level Applebee's servers who have no experience, are in the "survival career" category, or have no aspiration to do anything but work at Applebee's. They should earn 3-4x minimum wage, or about $24k a year.

Then you have your more respectable chain: Ruby Tuesday's. 4-6x or about $40k a year.

Something in the middle: Longhorn Steakhouse, 5-7x.

Above that you start talking about restaurant professionals, where they expect to see at least $80k a year. Prices are now 14x, but your server? They're damn good at their job. Never seen a professional in action before? Go to your city's equivalent to Manny's Steakhouse[0].

[0] http://www.mannyssteakhouse.com/

[sukilot]

Making up a stream of arbitary numbers doesn't explain anything to anyone.

[walterbell]

Less middlemen between farm and plate?

[UrMomReadsHN]

>I find it very amusing that you would tip a server who was noticably rude.

Yes, it is an absurd system. Basically, employers offload the responsibility of paying their employees on customers. So a tip is not a tip, it is an expected surcharge. Sure you can not tip, but its incredibly socially unacceptable. Furthermore, most people leave the same tip no matter what. Even if you had an exceptionally good or bad server, many places pool tips anyways.

When I was about 15 my friends and I accidentally forgot to leave a tip for the waitress. It was truly an accident. She followed us outside and to our car asking us for her tip. We got her to go back inside and then ran away because we weren't going to give her money after that...

[bobbles]

Yeah and a cabbie not giving full change is seen as 'tipping himself' rather than.. you know.. stealing?

[infinotize]

It is stealing but it gets lumped into the "things that happen in NYC that screw you over" category where you lose patience over in taking more seriously past getting your own money back.

[acjohnson55]

I've never experience that, but then if I'm paying cash, I ask for the specific amount of change I want back.

[meowface]

Waiters in the US make an average of $4.63 and median of $4.00 per hour [1] from their employer in wages. They make the rest of their income in tips. If you don't tip, you're potentially taking a not insignificant chunk out of their pay for the day.

In the US, it takes fairly extreme circumstances to not tip (by most people's standards at least; some people just never tip, but they're a tiny group), like if the service was extremely bad or the waiter was insulting or hostile.

Employers are legally required to chip in if the employee doesn't make minimum wage for a pay period, so it's not completely insane, but it's still a rather weird system.

[1] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2FWaitress/Ho...

[madeofpalk]

Yeah I mean I understand all of that, I just think it's crazy. As a consumer. Vox said it well with "consumers should not be responsible for paying the incomes of a restaurant owner's employees".

I find it hilarious how much intelligent and smart people rationalise the US tipping culture. It's always justified as you need to tip because the staff are paid low because they make it up in tips. It's circular reasoning.

[johngalt]

Why do you go to a restaurant rather than buying food from a grocery store and eating at home? The service aspect is what you pay for when going out to eat vs just buying food.

Tipping is about connecting the buyers and sellers of services directly. How does sending the money through a manager/owner result in better or more cost effective services?

[rjbwork]

Honestly, I go to a restaurant so I don't have to cook. If I could get top steakhouse quality (or indian, or italian, etc.) food from a counter where there's no one between me and the cook, I would, but I can't, so I don't, and I'm forced to tip someone I don't even want involved with my food in the first place.

[johngalt]

There are places where you order from a counter and tipping is not expected. You aren't going to find 'steakhouse quality' because people who want $50 steak from a counter is small.

[madeofpalk]

What I said elsewhere in the thread:

IMHO, one of the employers responsibility is to pay their staff. I don't think that's really arbitrary, it's commonly accepted across the world.

If you're in the service industry, it's your job to be nice. That's what their employer (hopefully) pays them for.

If I have a good or bad experience, I exercise my discretion by choosing whether to go there again. If the employer notices a trend downwards in customers, it's their responsibility to assess what that is - hopefully their in touch enough with their business to identify if it's because of their employees service and 'apply pressure' if need be.

I guess ultimately it comes down to culture. I (and the large majority of the non-US world) isn't accustom to paying 10%+ extra for bad or rude service and it would be very hard for us to understand why that happens.

[k-mcgrady]

>> "The service aspect is what you pay for"

Nope. I pay so someone else cooks my food and I have a nice selection. In fact anytime I've eaten at a restaurant in the US I hated the service. They just won't leave you alone because they want to be your friend so you will tip them. I don't need you to check how I'm doing every 10 minutes.

[jmccree]

Tipping is the original crowd funding.

[waterlesscloud]

Consumers pay 100% of the incomes of a restaurant's employees.

[madeofpalk]

Well not directly.

Why, as a consumer, am I making a decision on how much the staff will earn that day. That's the employer's responsibility. Why doesn't the restaurant owner set the price of what they sell accordingly to cover all costs (incl. wages)?

In Australia, the price I see on the menu is the price I'm charged and the price I pay. That includes wages!

[mod]

>> some people just never tip, but they're a tiny group

In my experience, they're not tiny. I'm a young male who owned and worked in my own bar in a poor area of the bible belt, so there's those caveats--but I averaged about 8% in tips over 2.5 years.

My niece, on the other hand, averages over 20%.

My service was in all likelihood better than hers--at the time, we had fewer customers and therefore I was literally able to do more. Further, I'm well-liked by my customer base, and by my own measure I was an excellent bartender.

Anyway, I had a very large amount of customers who did not tip. I'd say > 30%.

[lotharbot]

> "I averaged about 8% in tips over 2.5 years. My niece, on the other hand, averages over 20%."

Can you clarify the circumstances here, namely:

- does she work in your bar? If not, how similar is the place she works (same city? Same type of neighborhood? Same type of services?)

- did you work the same hours / days / crowd demographic? (There may be a difference in tipping expectations on Wednesday mid-afternoon when people are getting a single drink after work, vs Friday night when they're getting multiple drinks and food and trying to impress their date.)

- were there significant changes in the surrounding area, such as a factory opening or closing, that changed customer demographics?

- are there other wait staff you can compare to that would show a pattern? For example, are women in your establishment generally better tipped than men?

[mod]

Sorry it was unclear.

Yes, same bar.

Over time our clientele has changed (we intentionally changed it, mostly via pricing and what we carried, like nixxing 'Best Ice'), however that has just led to increased sales, rather than an increased percentage for her.

My nephew also works in the bar now, and he is tipped well, though not as well as my niece. I would venture a guess that the old crowd tipped women better than men, and the new crowd tips based mostly on service.

Either way, I got the short end of that stick.

[otoburb]

>>My niece, on the other hand, averages over 20%.

Were you able to figure out why?

[mod]

I just posted more about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8844833

But no, just speculation.

[acjohnson55]

I speculate that people are less likely to tip barstaff than waitstaff, but I don't have any sources to back that up.

[mod]

In the anecdata of my family & friends who have done both, they have come to expect a higher percentage on bar tabs (~20%) than on restaurant tabs (~15%).

There's a ton of factors to consider, of course. Some people get angry when drunk, some get loose with their money, some try to impress. Some people are surprised by large bar tabs and feel cheated. And all the normal factors, like that certain groups are notoriously tight with their money.

[madeofpalk]

> Employers are legally required to chip in if the employee doesn't make minimum wage for a pay period,

My own (very uninformed) assumption is that employers would be reluctant to make up the difference and employees would hesitate following this up in fear of getting in their employers 'bad books'

[jonesdc]

At first I thought your comment may have been flawed but you clearly recognized that the restaurant owner must cover the pay difference.

How is the average/median less than the federally mandated minimum wage law? Could the waiters themselves be under reporting tips?

[meowface]

The average isn't counting tips. Sorry if my post was misleading in that regard.

It's very possible a waiter could be making $4.00 in wage per hour but average out to something like $18/hour when you account for tips, and I think this is pretty common in mid-tier restaurants and up. (My numbers may be way off for that; I've never worked in a service industry.)

Waiters serving establishments in wealthier areas can potentially make a lot of money from tips.

[tzs]

If you do not tip, they have no way of knowing if the lack of tip is because you never tip, or because you were displeased with the service. A small tip resolves this ambiguity.

[lotharbot]

It's somewhat common to leave a two-cent tip to signify you were displeased with the service.

[mikeash]

A low tip can send a stronger message than no tip. If I was really upset with a waiter for some reason, a one-cent tip would convey my displeasure much better than leaving nothing at all. Not that I've had occasion to do this.

[infinotize]

See also above poster who feels 20% is not a high tip! To be fair most tipped workers do not make enough without tips and are allowed to be paid well under the minimum wage if they work in a tipping industry, so by not tipping at all you are really screwing them over.

[shostack]

"Automatic deduction for cabbies who often tip themselves and hand you less change without asking - give me my change in full and I'll tip you, thanks."

Couldn't that be entirely (and easily) avoided by simply handing them cash and asking for a specific amount back? Ie. fare is $10 and you want to give a $2 tip, you hand them a $20 and ask for $8 back. Is there a benefit to not asking for a specific amount back that I'm missing?

[meepmorp]

> Couldn't that be entirely (and easily) avoided by simply handing them cash and asking for a specific amount back? Ie. fare is $10 and you want to give a $2 tip, you hand them a $20 and ask for $8 back. Is there a benefit to not asking for a specific amount back that I'm missing?

I've actually never seen anyone pay for a cab any other way but asking for an amount of change back (well, besides just giving them the amount you want to give them and getting out of the cab).

[DanBC]

> keeping the doors locked and asking where you are going before letting you in, which is illegal)

Just out of interest: do you ever report those cabs?

[infinotize]

I never have in maybe half a dozen times, but if I and more people did it would happen less. I believe the consequences to the driver are quite steep. Usually if you are refused and not in the cab yet the driver won't stick around for you to get a good look at the plate/medallion/driver info. Another anecdote: I had a cab passenger open their door into my car once and while chatting with said passenger the driver (who saw what had happened) sped off as soon as the door was shut.

[girvo]

Different country, I'm in Australia, but I've reported many cabs for breaking various rules (and laws) as well as being outright hostile. I have an intense dislike of our cab duopoly in Brisbane, but to both of the companies' credit, they appreciated the heads-up when it came to dangerous, rude or illegal drivers. I highly recommend others report cabbies who break the rules, as if we don't they will never improve.

[ekanes]

This is a big reason that Uber and Lyft are a big deal - feedback systems are so ingrained that a bad driver won't last long.

[crmd]

>I won't default to a high tip for average service just because other people are doing it.

30% and up is a high tip. 20% is not. Life is short. Be the guy/gal who puts smiles on strangers faces. You can do this by taking care of service staff.

[EC1]

I can't wrap my head around tipping. Why do I have to pay extra? Why doesn't their employer pay them. Can someone explain tipping to me? Because apparently I'm the worst person on the planet for not tipping.

[maxerickson]

If you walk into a sit down restaurant in the US with a plan not to tip, you are being pretty obnoxious.

It's not complicated, tips in that situation aren't extra, they are part of the compensation of the entire staff of the restaurant (the waiters usually tip the bussers and the kitchen...).

If you don't like the arrangement, you should refrain from eating in such places.

[rahimnathwani]

> It's not complicated

It _is_ complicated. It's so complicated that (i) there are discussions on the internet about whether 15% or 20% or 25% is fair, and (ii) there are many specialised 'tip calculator' apps.

When I walk into a restaurant, how much should I be expecting to pay for 'meets expectation' service? Is this a % of the bill, or a $ amount related to the amount of time I'm being served (a proxy for the amount of service I get)? Whatever your answer, are you confident that most other patrons of said restaurant would agree with your recommendation?

[developer1]

One thing that is true that makes no sense is that tips are designed to be based on the dollar amount of the bill. Why should a 45 minute service of a $100 meal mandate a larger tip than the same 45 minute service of a $50 meal? The staff has put in the same amount of time and effort to serve both meals... yet the more expensive meal expects a larger tip. This aspect makes no sense whatsoever. A tip should be based on the number of clients served at a table + the time spent in the restaurant + perhaps additional money for special requests or complex meals.

If anything, you'd think the cheaper meal should have a larger tip since you're occupying a spot for a cheap meal when they could have had a client sit down and spend 3x as much as you. It's all backwards, the fact that the tip is based on the dollar amount of the meal...

[maxerickson]

I didn't say tipping was a great system, I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it.

I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated, but I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.

[rahimnathwani]

> I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it.

I expressed no opinion on this point.

> I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated

Even if I don't want external validation of what is fair, it is still complicated enough that I need to pull out a calculator after a date with my wife.

> I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.

Agreed, and this is the reason I tip according to local norms when I'm in the US.

[redditmigrant]

If it is so necessary and expected just include it in the price of the food. Why leave it to my whims at all? In what other situations(excluding restaurants/cabs) do you routinely part with more money than is legally owed?

[k-mcgrady]

>> "If you walk into a sit down restaurant in the US with a plan not to tip, you are being pretty obnoxious."

The owner is being obnoxious. It's not up to me to pay his/her staff. I've worked and know people who've worked in restaurants in the UK. They get paid above minimum wage and still get tips (which aren't required, but people usually round up the bill). It's not hard.

[maxerickson]

Like several other replies, you are talking about something different than I am talking about. You're expressing an opinion about including tips as an expected component of the transaction. I'm talking about flaunting this widely known expectation.

Your opinion that the structure is obnoxious does not make it any less obnoxious to fail to tip (especially when, as I said, someone walks in planning not to tip).

[k-mcgrady]

The obnoxious part imo is more that people feel obligated to tip even when the service is bad. There are several comments in this thread about tipping 10-20% for BAD service. Putting that decision on that customer is unfair.

[EC1]

It's complicated because its so ingrained in our society yet its completely unenforced except only by at most intense personal judgement.

Do we tip because the food service industry cannot meet demands to pay all staff at least minimum wage?

Is it because minimum wage nationally is too low and people feel the need to fill in that missing %?

Why would I tip a waiter and not a customer service representative?

What about a cashier?

What criteria do you use to determine who you tip?

One guy above mentioned he tips all sorts of people and it seems like the underlying reason is because they provide a service. Everybody provides a service, do you tip everybody?

If the bottom line for tipping is that you provide a service, it seems to be a binary situation doesn't it? You either tip everybody or you tip nobody.

It's such a completely arbitrary social contract. Maybe I'm reaching too much into this. Maybe I'm just autistic, who knows.

[UrMomReadsHN]

> You either tip everybody or you tip nobody.

If i go to McDonalds and order a coke I don't tip. If i go to a pub and order a coke I do. Explain that one to me.

[maxerickson]

In the specific instance of sit down restaurants, we tip because that is how the transaction is structured.

Do you think if restaurants had to pay their staff 4 times as much (minimum wage for servers is often ~$3 per hour but they probably take home closer to $10 or more) that the prices on the menu would stay the same? Do you see how that makes Do we tip because the food service industry cannot meet demands to pay all staff at least minimum wage? the wrong question to be asking?

[user58909]

I don't have to guess, I know the prices won't be that different. Not everyone knows it, but in WA state everyone including tipped employees must get the same minimum wage of over $9 an hour (to be increased to $15 in Seattle over the next several years). So the argument about underpayed workers doesn't hold any ground here, but people are still expected to tip.

[EC1]

I'd rather the burden of staff being paid be shifted to the employer and made up in the difference in cost of food. I'm from Canada where our minimum wage is quite decent, $10.50.

[crmd]

The theory is to incentivize awesome service by having each customer decide how much compensation to give based on the server's performance. Those who delight customers make more money, while whose who are bad at customer service make little money and are incentivized to leave the industry and do something not customer-facing.

[ENGNR]

How hard is it to bring someone a menu and then bring them the food they ask for?

I don't want to be delighted by the service, I'm there for the food and people I'm there with.

[jmccree]

Have you ever worked at popular sit down restaurant during a dinner rush? It's a mad house... Not easy at all.

Good service is knowing the menu and wine/drink list. Being able to provide recommendations and advice on what to order. Trying to write down all the orders at this table while you see an empty water glass and someone is taking 5 minutes to decide which salad to order and you know there's food for another table getting cold in the window.

If you just want food and a place to sit, there's plenty of fast food/fast casual restaurants. If you go to a place with wait staff, it's because you are going to get waited on. A good wait person can be the difference in having a wonderful night or a horrible one.

[JoeAltmaier]

Waitstaff are critical, and should be trained. Good waitstaff are a joy (prompt, pleasant, know the menu and can make suggestions, preemptively help avoid problems, revisit but don't keep badgering you).

However there's no night I don't cook that is 'horrible'. Its can be frustrating or amusing depending on my attitude. But if I'm sitting down and getting fed, then the rest is gravy.

[js2]

I tip folks in the service industry whenever I have a chance, not just wait staff. I'll tip mechanics, my postal delivery person, the guy who delivers firewood, the hotel maid, etc. The way I see it, it's a very small percentage of my income to someone doing a job I'm glad I don't have to do. I worked retail growing up and dealing with people down right sucks. I'm glad I can ao easily bring a smile to someone's face.

When I get rude or incompetent service relative to the price point, I ask to speak to the manager, which I think is a better way to handle things.

[prawn]

Do you tip when picking up takeaway, or buying fast food? Or when checking in at the airport? Do you tip a web designer, or when buying a car?

Elsewhere in the discussion, someone notes that the vast majority would tip when buying Coke at the pub, but not at a fast food place. At either place, the process seems pretty similar to me.

[EC1]

I guess my struggle is internal then. I feel crappy about myself for being weak for tipping because I feel like I'm being scammed out of my own money via guilt given to me by their employer. And then I feel crappy if I don't tip.

[acjohnson55]

You should feel crappy if you don't tip. It's an "honor system" but the wages assume that people tip servers. I know, it's absurd, but that's the system. If you don't want to tip, please don't eat at places where waitstaff are paid a wage that presumes tips.

[user58909]

That's not true everywhere. In Washington State (and some other places around US) minimum wage is the same for everyone including tipped employees. So please stop spreading this flawed logic and accept that it's just another way for restaurant owners screw you over with your own full consent

[thezilch]

And what places are those? And how much?

[jmccree]

You're not being scammed in the US. You're given the ability to give immediate feedback on the service you received by adjusting your tip amount.

What I don't understand is people saying they are "forced" to pay extra... Why would raising all the prices of the food 15-20% to make up for lost tips and actually forcing you pay that be better? Then you don't have the option to pay less if the service was bad.

[frandroid]

Because you would not eat there if the employer paid decent wages and passed it on to you by charging 30% more than the "tipping" restaurant next door.

The only way to get around this is to mandate higher minimum wages for hospitality workers, putting every restaurant on a level playing field. This is what they do in Australia and many European countries.

[innguest]

Why must their new mandated wages be higher than the minimum wage? We already have the minimum wage, and I assume that's what it's for? Are hospitality workers better than other minimum wage workers?

[jmccree]

Every tipping thread on HN becomes an example of why the rest of the world hates the SV/startup community. You have people who likely make more in one day than the wait person will make all week arguing over whether 15% or 20% to tip. An extra $5-10 is likely pocket change for someone on HN, but could make someone in the service industry's day.

20% is the default tip for good service. 30% and above is a high tip. If you have bad service, ask to speak to a manager. I'm embarrassed by the lack of empathy shown in this thread.