[crmd]

>I won't default to a high tip for average service just because other people are doing it.

30% and up is a high tip. 20% is not. Life is short. Be the guy/gal who puts smiles on strangers faces. You can do this by taking care of service staff.

[EC1]

I can't wrap my head around tipping. Why do I have to pay extra? Why doesn't their employer pay them. Can someone explain tipping to me? Because apparently I'm the worst person on the planet for not tipping.

[maxerickson]

If you walk into a sit down restaurant in the US with a plan not to tip, you are being pretty obnoxious.

It's not complicated, tips in that situation aren't extra, they are part of the compensation of the entire staff of the restaurant (the waiters usually tip the bussers and the kitchen...).

If you don't like the arrangement, you should refrain from eating in such places.

[rahimnathwani]

> It's not complicated

It _is_ complicated. It's so complicated that (i) there are discussions on the internet about whether 15% or 20% or 25% is fair, and (ii) there are many specialised 'tip calculator' apps.

When I walk into a restaurant, how much should I be expecting to pay for 'meets expectation' service? Is this a % of the bill, or a $ amount related to the amount of time I'm being served (a proxy for the amount of service I get)? Whatever your answer, are you confident that most other patrons of said restaurant would agree with your recommendation?

[developer1]

One thing that is true that makes no sense is that tips are designed to be based on the dollar amount of the bill. Why should a 45 minute service of a $100 meal mandate a larger tip than the same 45 minute service of a $50 meal? The staff has put in the same amount of time and effort to serve both meals... yet the more expensive meal expects a larger tip. This aspect makes no sense whatsoever. A tip should be based on the number of clients served at a table + the time spent in the restaurant + perhaps additional money for special requests or complex meals.

If anything, you'd think the cheaper meal should have a larger tip since you're occupying a spot for a cheap meal when they could have had a client sit down and spend 3x as much as you. It's all backwards, the fact that the tip is based on the dollar amount of the meal...

[maxerickson]

I didn't say tipping was a great system, I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it.

I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated, but I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.

[rahimnathwani]

> I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it.

I expressed no opinion on this point.

> I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated

Even if I don't want external validation of what is fair, it is still complicated enough that I need to pull out a calculator after a date with my wife.

> I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.

Agreed, and this is the reason I tip according to local norms when I'm in the US.

[redditmigrant]

If it is so necessary and expected just include it in the price of the food. Why leave it to my whims at all? In what other situations(excluding restaurants/cabs) do you routinely part with more money than is legally owed?

[k-mcgrady]

>> "If you walk into a sit down restaurant in the US with a plan not to tip, you are being pretty obnoxious."

The owner is being obnoxious. It's not up to me to pay his/her staff. I've worked and know people who've worked in restaurants in the UK. They get paid above minimum wage and still get tips (which aren't required, but people usually round up the bill). It's not hard.

[maxerickson]

Like several other replies, you are talking about something different than I am talking about. You're expressing an opinion about including tips as an expected component of the transaction. I'm talking about flaunting this widely known expectation.

Your opinion that the structure is obnoxious does not make it any less obnoxious to fail to tip (especially when, as I said, someone walks in planning not to tip).

[k-mcgrady]

The obnoxious part imo is more that people feel obligated to tip even when the service is bad. There are several comments in this thread about tipping 10-20% for BAD service. Putting that decision on that customer is unfair.

[EC1]

It's complicated because its so ingrained in our society yet its completely unenforced except only by at most intense personal judgement.

Do we tip because the food service industry cannot meet demands to pay all staff at least minimum wage?

Is it because minimum wage nationally is too low and people feel the need to fill in that missing %?

Why would I tip a waiter and not a customer service representative?

What about a cashier?

What criteria do you use to determine who you tip?

One guy above mentioned he tips all sorts of people and it seems like the underlying reason is because they provide a service. Everybody provides a service, do you tip everybody?

If the bottom line for tipping is that you provide a service, it seems to be a binary situation doesn't it? You either tip everybody or you tip nobody.

It's such a completely arbitrary social contract. Maybe I'm reaching too much into this. Maybe I'm just autistic, who knows.

[UrMomReadsHN]

> You either tip everybody or you tip nobody.

If i go to McDonalds and order a coke I don't tip. If i go to a pub and order a coke I do. Explain that one to me.

[maxerickson]

In the specific instance of sit down restaurants, we tip because that is how the transaction is structured.

Do you think if restaurants had to pay their staff 4 times as much (minimum wage for servers is often ~$3 per hour but they probably take home closer to $10 or more) that the prices on the menu would stay the same? Do you see how that makes Do we tip because the food service industry cannot meet demands to pay all staff at least minimum wage? the wrong question to be asking?

[user58909]

I don't have to guess, I know the prices won't be that different. Not everyone knows it, but in WA state everyone including tipped employees must get the same minimum wage of over $9 an hour (to be increased to $15 in Seattle over the next several years). So the argument about underpayed workers doesn't hold any ground here, but people are still expected to tip.

[EC1]

I'd rather the burden of staff being paid be shifted to the employer and made up in the difference in cost of food. I'm from Canada where our minimum wage is quite decent, $10.50.

[maxerickson]

Yes, that's fine. My argument was quite clear, that you should not abuse the existing situation. I was even geographically specific.

[crmd]

The theory is to incentivize awesome service by having each customer decide how much compensation to give based on the server's performance. Those who delight customers make more money, while whose who are bad at customer service make little money and are incentivized to leave the industry and do something not customer-facing.

[ENGNR]

How hard is it to bring someone a menu and then bring them the food they ask for?

I don't want to be delighted by the service, I'm there for the food and people I'm there with.

[jmccree]

Have you ever worked at popular sit down restaurant during a dinner rush? It's a mad house... Not easy at all.

Good service is knowing the menu and wine/drink list. Being able to provide recommendations and advice on what to order. Trying to write down all the orders at this table while you see an empty water glass and someone is taking 5 minutes to decide which salad to order and you know there's food for another table getting cold in the window.

If you just want food and a place to sit, there's plenty of fast food/fast casual restaurants. If you go to a place with wait staff, it's because you are going to get waited on. A good wait person can be the difference in having a wonderful night or a horrible one.

[JoeAltmaier]

Waitstaff are critical, and should be trained. Good waitstaff are a joy (prompt, pleasant, know the menu and can make suggestions, preemptively help avoid problems, revisit but don't keep badgering you).

However there's no night I don't cook that is 'horrible'. Its can be frustrating or amusing depending on my attitude. But if I'm sitting down and getting fed, then the rest is gravy.

[js2]

I tip folks in the service industry whenever I have a chance, not just wait staff. I'll tip mechanics, my postal delivery person, the guy who delivers firewood, the hotel maid, etc. The way I see it, it's a very small percentage of my income to someone doing a job I'm glad I don't have to do. I worked retail growing up and dealing with people down right sucks. I'm glad I can ao easily bring a smile to someone's face.

When I get rude or incompetent service relative to the price point, I ask to speak to the manager, which I think is a better way to handle things.

[prawn]

Do you tip when picking up takeaway, or buying fast food? Or when checking in at the airport? Do you tip a web designer, or when buying a car?

Elsewhere in the discussion, someone notes that the vast majority would tip when buying Coke at the pub, but not at a fast food place. At either place, the process seems pretty similar to me.

[EC1]

I guess my struggle is internal then. I feel crappy about myself for being weak for tipping because I feel like I'm being scammed out of my own money via guilt given to me by their employer. And then I feel crappy if I don't tip.

[acjohnson55]

You should feel crappy if you don't tip. It's an "honor system" but the wages assume that people tip servers. I know, it's absurd, but that's the system. If you don't want to tip, please don't eat at places where waitstaff are paid a wage that presumes tips.

[user58909]

That's not true everywhere. In Washington State (and some other places around US) minimum wage is the same for everyone including tipped employees. So please stop spreading this flawed logic and accept that it's just another way for restaurant owners screw you over with your own full consent

[thezilch]

And what places are those? And how much?

[dragonwriter]

> And what places are those?

What places don't assume that waitstaff are tipped? Fast food restaurants and in-grocery-store ready-to-eat food-service areas. And places that explicitly advertise prices with "service included" (though these are rare.)

[acjohnson55]

I honestly don't know, and so I tip 18-20% everywhere, if I order a sit down meal. I order for pickup if I'm trying to eat out and save money.

[jmccree]

You're not being scammed in the US. You're given the ability to give immediate feedback on the service you received by adjusting your tip amount.

What I don't understand is people saying they are "forced" to pay extra... Why would raising all the prices of the food 15-20% to make up for lost tips and actually forcing you pay that be better? Then you don't have the option to pay less if the service was bad.

[frandroid]

Because you would not eat there if the employer paid decent wages and passed it on to you by charging 30% more than the "tipping" restaurant next door.

The only way to get around this is to mandate higher minimum wages for hospitality workers, putting every restaurant on a level playing field. This is what they do in Australia and many European countries.

[innguest]

Why must their new mandated wages be higher than the minimum wage? We already have the minimum wage, and I assume that's what it's for? Are hospitality workers better than other minimum wage workers?

[jmccree]

Every tipping thread on HN becomes an example of why the rest of the world hates the SV/startup community. You have people who likely make more in one day than the wait person will make all week arguing over whether 15% or 20% to tip. An extra $5-10 is likely pocket change for someone on HN, but could make someone in the service industry's day.

20% is the default tip for good service. 30% and above is a high tip. If you have bad service, ask to speak to a manager. I'm embarrassed by the lack of empathy shown in this thread.