[insuffi]

It's certainly not that Putin needs to suppress dissent from his own people. It's a very small minority in Russia that would like Putin removed.

Now, if we're talking about the west investing x billion in "democratic institutions"(Ukraine, anyone?), it makes some sense for Russia to isolate itself. Obviously, it's easy to paint Russia as evil, but the cold war is over, buddy.

[vdaniuk]

That's hilarious. People in Russia support Putin exactly because there are virtually no free mass media. This is one of the latest steps to block access to all media channels that may oppose Russian cleptocratic government.

[Shivetya]

don't always believe what you read here, there are a lot of Russians who want to relive the glory days, real or perceived. Just because we in the West don't like him doesn't mean much to them, if anything it might bolster his image there.

plus, considering what our President(s) do/done where do we have room to brag/gloat? I cannot find those news articles where Putin is using drones to kill his citizens abroad.

[exelius]

This is spot on. Russians had a ton of structure for ~70 years, then one day all of that disappeared. Outside the big cities, things did kind of go to shit for a long time, with many youth addicted to drugs or simply jobless and desperate. This led to a rise in extreme nationalism among the youth, who pine for the "good old days" when Russia was a global superpower.

You know those racist, alcoholic rednecks in Alabama who fly confederate flags, praise Jesus and love America? Russia has a lot of those. Except the government actively encourages their insanity, because redirecting their furor at outside forces (Ukraine/Crimea, US, the EU, etc) distracts from the kleptocracy that runs the country and has quietly been consolidating wealth and business ownership into the hands of a very small group of oligarchs. Putin is a hero to these guys; he projects a nationalist ideology onto the global stage, where Russia is the bully that gets its way.

Not saying the US doesn't do its share of geopolitically shady crap (NSA spying, etc) but it never reached these levels of crazy. What Russia and Putin are doing is very reminiscent of Nazi Germany, and not in a "they're acting line Nazis" kind of way. By promoting the dangerous idea that "ethnic Russians" in other countries need protection, it elevates that nationalism to the point where it can be used as a context for an invasion of a country. Never mind that the idea of "ethnic Russian" could apply to any person living in a country that was formerly part of the USSR.

[insuffi]

Just to make it clear, I don't disagree with your first two paragraphs regarding nationalism and alcoholism, but your apologetic attitude for the US is somewhat worrying.

Except for Ukraine, which is a controversial subject, when was the last time Russia directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments?

Now, how about the US in the last 14 years - Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Haiti, Gaza Strip, Somalia, Iran, Lybia and Syria. Does that not come off as "crazy" to you?

EDIT: oops, sorry. Forgot Yemen and Pakistan, against whom there is no official declaration of war either.

[userulluipeste]

Except for Ukraine, which is a controversial subject, when was the last time Russia directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments?

What did Russia in Georgia with Abhazia and South Ossetia? How about Republic of Moldova where Russia still holds a standing army with no legal status? (It's the former 14th USSR army, which just happen to remain on the Moldova's territory after the fall of USSR, but to submit to Moscow nevertheless, and which was/is being used to support the so-called Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, BTW.)

P.S.: Please, don't use USA's action to justify Russia. If crimes are being committed by someone somewhere doesn't mean that a crime are no longer a crime.

[pyre]

> directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments

> how about the US in the last 14 years [...] Iran

Maybe I'm missing something, but when did the US overthrow Iran's government in the last 14 years? Or Syria for that matter?

[mark_l_watson]

You are right - we overthrew Iran's government way back in the 1950s, not recently. Their president was a popular moderate (a medical doctor I think). Then we forced the Shah of Iran on the Iranian people.

In my lifetime I believe that we have tried to overthrow 30+ governments around the world when in the interests of America's financial elite.

Do you know what I consider patriotism to be? It includes admitting things that we did wrong and try very hard to do better in the future.

[BugBrother]

First, let me note that it isn't really relevant to complain about a second party as "answer" to criticism of a first one.

Check http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny_ballistic_missile_atta...

Or other information about Russian atrocities in that war. (The whole point with drones is that they are pinpoint attacks, with relatively low civilian casualities.)

And USA is a tempering influence, re Gaza. Consider what would happens if Finland or a Baltic country used rocket artillery against St Petersburg? No, better to not consider that... (shudder.)

The same goes for most of your other examples.

[insuffi]

1) That was not what I was doing. He was comparing Russia and the U.S. in the last paragraph, so it was very relevant.

2) If we're talking about atrocities, let's talk about 100,000 casualties in Iraq.(most conservative estimate). Additionally, 2,400 dead from drone strokes. Most, if not all, without due process in Pakistan and Yemen.

3) Tempering influence? Are you serious? Is it tempering to overthrow governments and install new ones while denationalizing oil contracts? I heard Lybia's a democracy now and not a shithole.

U.S. is just as bad as Russia. Your time of being the beacon of light and democracy is gone.

[pyre]

> I cannot find those news articles where Putin is using drones to kill his citizens abroad.

Maybe that's because of lack of free Russian media...

[cinskiy]

I think you're painting everything black and white here. I'm Russian, I have no TV at home, I get all my news from reddit and twitter, and I still support Putin, though I don't like him a lot. You're right about mass media, but that doesn't mean you can't have sources of information you like. Russia is not North Korea.

Putin brought quality of life in Russia to a pretty nice level, and he keeps doing it, and a lot of people like that. And I see no point in becoming involved in protest movement and revolution rage. We all saw what happened to our neighbour, we need evolution, not revolution.

[vdaniuk]

Oil brought quality of life in Russia to a pretty nice level, despite Putin corrupt government, not because of him.

Most people conform to a majority opinion. Its dangerous to be publicly against Putin and new russian militarism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_of_silence

And right, you all "saw" what happened to Ukraine, it's not that Russia annexed Crimea and supports separatists in the east, nope.

[insuffi]

Just like it was the russians in Odessa that burned all those people alive? Please.

Russia barely supports anyone in the east. Even NY times(the newspaper that was fully pro Iraq war) went in, talked to the separatists and found out they're just pro federalization.

Your blind hate for Putin is apparent. You'll start blaming earthquakes in Oklahoma on him soon.

[BugBrother]

I ask one question to recognize astroturfing from the Putin junta:

If you check the larger democracy indexes, they have started to show Russia as "authoritarian" now, i.e. not democratic at all.

Is that a Western conspiracy?

[mark_l_watson]

Well define democracy.

I have a good friend who is an Israeli citizen and he has been complaining for the 20 years I have known him that his country's politics are so warped by the people he calls 'the rich American assholes' (like AIPAC) who fund the right wing in Israel that sometimes his country does not seem to be such a good democracy. Imagine a whole lot of external money being injected into the politics of your country - you would probably not like it either.

As for my country, the USA: we are certainly a democracy but there is so much cheating via gerrymandering, etc. that I feel like we have lost something very precious since the end of the second world war when our financial elites started to step up their game.

[insuffi]

Read the nytimes article, and look up videos from the Odessa massacre.

[coldtea]

>That's hilarious. People in Russia support Putin exactly because there are virtually no free mass media.

That's BS. They support him because he is not a bloody puppet like Yeltsin and co, and the alternatives are worst.

He might support cronyism, but that's nothing compared to selling your country wholesale to the highest western bidder, like a sorry excuse of a lackey.

[alexro]

Russians prefer a cleptocratic government with Putin than a cleptocratic government without Putin. There are no non-cleptocratic governments in the world. Power corrups ... you know the rest of this, right?

[vdaniuk]

Just stop this craptastic argument of "every government is the same". Another favorite argument taken directly from putinbots social media guidance.

And stop using strawman arguments. No government is perfect but there are degrees of corruption in the government. Russian government is extremely corrupt, Iceland government is a little bit corrupt. One is better than another. God, do I really have to post trivia on HN?

[alexro]

Don't think trivial and you'll be safe. There are degrees of corruption between of the biggest countries and the tiny ones, but not so much inside the group. The methods vary, of course.

[mercurial]

You have plenty of small, extremely corrupt countries as well.

[Schwoisser]

But smaller countries tend to do better.

[insuffi]

Heh, Right. Is there free mass media anywhere else? Are you aware that any journalist who spoke out against the Iraq war never had a career again? Free mass media is a political talking point, not a real thing.

Would you prefer Yeltsin? Putin is what Russia needs.

[VMG]

> Are you aware that any journalist who spoke out against the Iraq war never had a career again?

Yeah we never heard of Michael Moore ever again.

[vdaniuk]

Ah, yes, what about the USA. The favorite argument of putinbots. Because there are no other countries in the world, right?

[insuffi]

Oh wow, a putinbot. Great argumentation.

[vdaniuk]

Yes, based on your argumentation, your anonymous profile and your posting history, there is a big chance that you are paid to post here.

Don't really care about your opinion, but other HN readers should know about the situation with Russian propaganda on social media: http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhimler/2014/05/06/russias-m...

[insuffi]

Right. I bet they pay a lot, lol.

Since you're more concerned with attacking me ad hominem, I guess I'll just join in. You are paid by the NSA[0]. Mind-blown!Since, after all, character assassination is the way lead a discussion.

Additionally, your name sounds ukrainian. You must be a right wing ULTRA then! How is that for being a putinbot. See how ridiculous you look throwing accusations at people just because they disagree with you.

[0]https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/04/04/cuban-twitter-...