[exelius]

This is spot on. Russians had a ton of structure for ~70 years, then one day all of that disappeared. Outside the big cities, things did kind of go to shit for a long time, with many youth addicted to drugs or simply jobless and desperate. This led to a rise in extreme nationalism among the youth, who pine for the "good old days" when Russia was a global superpower.

You know those racist, alcoholic rednecks in Alabama who fly confederate flags, praise Jesus and love America? Russia has a lot of those. Except the government actively encourages their insanity, because redirecting their furor at outside forces (Ukraine/Crimea, US, the EU, etc) distracts from the kleptocracy that runs the country and has quietly been consolidating wealth and business ownership into the hands of a very small group of oligarchs. Putin is a hero to these guys; he projects a nationalist ideology onto the global stage, where Russia is the bully that gets its way.

Not saying the US doesn't do its share of geopolitically shady crap (NSA spying, etc) but it never reached these levels of crazy. What Russia and Putin are doing is very reminiscent of Nazi Germany, and not in a "they're acting line Nazis" kind of way. By promoting the dangerous idea that "ethnic Russians" in other countries need protection, it elevates that nationalism to the point where it can be used as a context for an invasion of a country. Never mind that the idea of "ethnic Russian" could apply to any person living in a country that was formerly part of the USSR.

[insuffi]

Just to make it clear, I don't disagree with your first two paragraphs regarding nationalism and alcoholism, but your apologetic attitude for the US is somewhat worrying.

Except for Ukraine, which is a controversial subject, when was the last time Russia directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments?

Now, how about the US in the last 14 years - Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Haiti, Gaza Strip, Somalia, Iran, Lybia and Syria. Does that not come off as "crazy" to you?

EDIT: oops, sorry. Forgot Yemen and Pakistan, against whom there is no official declaration of war either.

[userulluipeste]

Except for Ukraine, which is a controversial subject, when was the last time Russia directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments?

What did Russia in Georgia with Abhazia and South Ossetia? How about Republic of Moldova where Russia still holds a standing army with no legal status? (It's the former 14th USSR army, which just happen to remain on the Moldova's territory after the fall of USSR, but to submit to Moscow nevertheless, and which was/is being used to support the so-called Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, BTW.)

P.S.: Please, don't use USA's action to justify Russia. If crimes are being committed by someone somewhere doesn't mean that a crime are no longer a crime.

[pyre]

> directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments

> how about the US in the last 14 years [...] Iran

Maybe I'm missing something, but when did the US overthrow Iran's government in the last 14 years? Or Syria for that matter?

[mark_l_watson]

You are right - we overthrew Iran's government way back in the 1950s, not recently. Their president was a popular moderate (a medical doctor I think). Then we forced the Shah of Iran on the Iranian people.

In my lifetime I believe that we have tried to overthrow 30+ governments around the world when in the interests of America's financial elite.

Do you know what I consider patriotism to be? It includes admitting things that we did wrong and try very hard to do better in the future.

[pyre]

This whole thread started from "US does more bad things than Russia, just look at recent history." You can't start tossing things that the US did in the 50's on the table, and not do the same for Russia. The whole point (as I see it) of the "in the last 14 years" qualifier is that we're talking recent history. It's disingenuous to dredge up things from much further into the past.

It was also a different time period with different considerations. Now I'm not being an apologist for this stuff, but I would say that similar actions in the more recent past have much less justification, even if you are someone that buys into the "Domino Effect" defense from the Cold War-era.

[Schwoisser]

Maybe there is no good guy in this game.

[BugBrother]

First, let me note that it isn't really relevant to complain about a second party as "answer" to criticism of a first one.

Check http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny_ballistic_missile_atta...

Or other information about Russian atrocities in that war. (The whole point with drones is that they are pinpoint attacks, with relatively low civilian casualities.)

And USA is a tempering influence, re Gaza. Consider what would happens if Finland or a Baltic country used rocket artillery against St Petersburg? No, better to not consider that... (shudder.)

The same goes for most of your other examples.

[insuffi]

1) That was not what I was doing. He was comparing Russia and the U.S. in the last paragraph, so it was very relevant.

2) If we're talking about atrocities, let's talk about 100,000 casualties in Iraq.(most conservative estimate). Additionally, 2,400 dead from drone strokes. Most, if not all, without due process in Pakistan and Yemen.

3) Tempering influence? Are you serious? Is it tempering to overthrow governments and install new ones while denationalizing oil contracts? I heard Lybia's a democracy now and not a shithole.

U.S. is just as bad as Russia. Your time of being the beacon of light and democracy is gone.

[BugBrother]

>>Tempering influence? Are you serious? Is it tempering to overthrow governments

"Tempering influence" was specifically about Gaza.

But you know that.

>>100,000 casualties in Iraq

First, let me note I am not defending the Iraq invasion. Not because I cares about the rights of evil juntas, but because it was so badly managed it even increased the suffering.

Second, those in Iraq were mainly killed in a civil war by people also trying to kill Americans. It is not trivial to blame Americans for that...

I think you know that, too.

About drone strikes -- both the Pakistani and Yemeni governments accepted them. In Pakistan unofficially, because the extremists targets polticians/media/etc with the "wrong" opinions.

I think you know that, third...

Etc.

Edit: I might add that I'm not American. Please keep personal attacks relevant at least, propagandist.