[your_throwaway]

Yeah, except when I do start a conversation with you, I'm hitting on you, and probably being "creepy".

I have to navigate a mental minefield of "don't say this" "don't say that too much" or "don't be overly aggressive", otherwise I get screamed about on twitter, labeled as a misogynist, and possibly fired from my job. (Uh-oh, I said dongle! Or...[1]meritocracy!)

I'm not saying women in tech don't have problems, they do, but I'm really sick of hearing this like it's a completely one-sided problem. The stupid evil men are holding the women down and keeping them from succeeding!

Gender dynamics are hard, for EVERYBODY. Men are having to deal with the fact that suddenly (or maybe not suddenly?) doing things like getting beer after conferences is bad, telling jokes to one another is bad, thinking certain thoughts is bad, using certain words[2] is bad.

I'm sorry if you come to a conference and I don't behave in the ultra-narrowly-defined way that you have determined makes me not part of the problem (although I recently found out that asking if I did it wrong makes me part of the problem).

I don't have a context for this! And it seems like everything I, and other men like me, try to do to make you feel included is WRONG, and we're BAD for doing it!

Invite you to beers after a conference? Hitting on you!

Compliment you on what you're wearing? Hitting on you! Objectifying you! Noticing that you are a partially-physical entity! THE HORROR!

Ask you about your projects? Flirting with you!

Make a suggestion about your project? Mansplaining at you!

Men have to navigate a constantly changing, and VERY hazardous minefield every time we talk to you. I'm really sorry (really, genuinely, that is not sarcasm) that sometimes we get it wrong, or sometimes we just forego trying at all and stay quite around you. A lot of it is really just because we don't want to mess it up and make you angry. Women have a LOT of power over men in these situations, and if we screw up even a tiny tiny bit, it can ruin our lives.

[1]:http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug#awesm...

[2]:http://banbossy.com

[lambda]

Dude, it's really not hard to have a technical conversation with someone and not come off as creepy. If you feel like you have to worry about this all the time, there's something seriously off about your interpersonal instincts. I'm a pretty socially awkward nerdy guy, and I've never had a problem with being able to have a technical conversation with a woman without being accused of "mansplaining", "being overly aggressive", being "screamed about on twitter" or the like. If all of those things are happening to you, you're probably going about it wrong.

Remember, you hear about the worst incidents online. The things that make it to the news do so because they're newsworthy, not because they're commonplace.

Since many of us are socially awkward nerds here, let me give you a few hints:

Inviting someone for beers after a conference is not hitting on them. But if you're really worried it appearing that way, make sure you invite more than one person; it feels much more like an after-conference beer than an invitation to a date if there's a group of people.

Complementing someone on what they're wearing? I complement my male coworkers on their new sneakers or spiffy new jackets sometimes; it's no more creepy to do the same for a female coworker. But I wouldn't do that to some guy I just met, only someone I've known for a while and already have a professional relationship with. If the first thing I said to a guy was a complement on his shoes, that would sound a little weird, wouldn't it, like I might be hitting on him? Same rule goes. Don't make a complement on a woman's clothes or appearance be the first thing you say to her, that makes it sound like you're hitting on her. But if you've known her a while and you notice that she's gotten a new haircut or new jacket, it's not a problem to mention it.

Asking about someone's projects? How would you imagine that would sound like flirting? Just make sure you're actually interested in someone's projects, and not just using it as a "get to know you" before trying to ask them on a date.

[your_throwaway]

We are literally on the exact same page. You're enumerating my point.

Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them, but I have been told by women exactly why this is not okay. (In conversations like this one. This sort of "hey that's not okay" doesn't ever seem to actually come up in real life)

I agree that it's totally normal to compliment people on what they're wearing, and I, like you, do this to my coworkers all the time.

Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay.

That's my point. "Normal" human interactions are being cast as not okay by some vocal tech writers, which is what can create a mental minefield.

[lambda]

> Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them

That's not true. It can be hitting on them, or it can not be. If you think you might be in a grey area, maybe err on the side of making it feel safer by making it a group outing rather than putting them on the spot. Don't use that doubt about the grey area as an excuse for avoiding talking to women at all, however.

> Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay.

I have never heard someone scream such a thing. Jesus, if I complimented someone and they screamed at me, I'd think they were crazy. Do people really scream about that at you?

Remember, don't confuse vocal debate on Twitter or HN with screaming. It's really not the same. People are frequently more blunt online than they are in real life. This happens in all directions. But don't act like it's the end of the world when a few people are overly vocal on the internet.

Also, don't respond to legitimate, reasonable complaints, like "I'm the technical person coming to this conference and people ignore me and talk to my fiance instead" with "well yeah, but this other thing over here blew up way out of proportion on the internet, so I can't treat you like a normal person in real life."

Yes, there is occasional overreaction that has real life consequences, like the unfortunate PyCon "dongle" incident. That's really the exception rather than the rule, however, and the real-life consequences happened in both directions. Note that many, many prominent feminist writers came out against both Adria Richard's actions and those of the the company that fired the guy making the joke.

[teacup50]

> That's not true. It can be hitting on them, or it can not be.

Isn't that the point of many beer invites? It's a chance to socialize, and if you don't have an established relationship, it's a chance to establish one.

> If you think you might be in a grey area, maybe err on the side of making it feel safer by making it a group outing rather than putting them on the spot.

Safer?

I'm sorry, are we talking about children or adults? If someone can't manage a potentially ambiguous beer invite -- for instance, by inviting other people along themselves -- they ought to keep it to themselves and just say "no thanks"

> That's really the exception rather than the rule, however, and the real-life consequences happened in both directions.

Yes, it is the exception, but angry rhetorical baseball bats like "mansplaining" and "privilege" are being plastered all over the tech community these days, and it stops seeming like the exception.

I already feel uncomfortable attending an event that has adopted Ada Initiative-derived code of conduct, or otherwise aligned themselves with that vocal sector of the technology community.

It's clear that focus is being redirected to politics, and when people start using hostile language to describe my gender and race in broad strokes, I'm clearly in the cross-hairs for a small, vocal, and highly volatile minority; there are safer and more comfortable places for me to be.

[lambda]

(warning: strong, potentially triggering language contained in this post)

> I'm sorry, are we talking about children or adults? If someone can't manage a potentially ambiguous beer invite -- for instance, by inviting other people along -- they ought to keep it to themselves and just say "no thanks"

I was responding to someone who was acting as if he had to be on his toes any time he invited a woman for a beer, as if he'd be immediately be branded a sexist for ever thinking about inviting her for beer.

Yes, I'm making this sound childish, because his complaint was childish. I was giving him some advice, in case he actually believed that there was a risk of being branded a sexist for inviting someone to a beer, for how to resolve such situations that he seems to be so afraid of safely, without any potential hint of ambiguity. I was only half serious. It is fine advice if you really are so socially inept as to not know where that line is; however, I suspect that his argument was more of a strawman, built up so he could complain about some perceived wrong online, rather than an actual legitimate explanation for why he thinks that men frequently ignore women at technical conferences.

> Yes, it is the exception, but angry rhetorical baseball bats like "mansplaining" and "privilege" are being plastered all over the tech community these days, and it stops seeming like the exception.

Hm? The fact that people are bigger assholes online than they are in real life is news to you? I was pointing out that real life consequences are relatively rare, while online rhetoric can be much more heated, so your response about heated online rhetoric doesn't really contradict what I was saying.

And think about this for a minute. People who are criticizing sexism online and go over the line use such horrible "rhetorical baseball bats" as "mansplaining" and "privilege", while those who criticize perceived over-sensitivity to sexism use things like murder and rape threats: http://www.dailydot.com/news/adria-richards-fired-sendgrid-v... If you are going to complain about "rhetorical basebal bats", I think that death threats are a bit more severe than being accused of "mansplaining."

> I already feel uncomfortable attending an event that has adopted Ada Initiative-derived code of conduct

Really? This code of conduct makes you feel uncomfortable?

https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/

What part of that makes you feel uncomfortable? I think it's pretty unobjectionable.

> when people start using hostile language to describe my gender and race in broad strokes, I'm clearly in the cross-hairs for a small, vocal, and highly volatile minority

No, you really aren't in any cross hairs. Come on. Unless you are actively harassing people, or making inappropriate jokes in professional venues, there is no one who is against you or out to get you.

None of the people proposing these codes of conduct are against white men at all (I'm assuming that's the "gender and race" you are referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong); if they were, why would they be going to programming conferences in the first place, which are full of white men? What they are looking for is recognition that there are other people at the conference, who may not feel the same sense of safety as you do.

One problem is that without a code of conduct, it can be hard to know where to draw the line, or hard to adequately enforce that line as there is no written guideline for how to deal with such situations. With the code of conduct, it becomes more clear; blatantly sexual language is over the line, and it can be dealt with by expulsion from the conference. It's simple, and it lets you not worry about it; as a conference organizer, you don't have to worry about how prominent in the community someone is when they make a porn-based presentation, you can just firmly say "no."

[teacup50]

"Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention."

That's extremely open ended, based on perception rather than objectivity, and how we got donglegate.

As for physically threatening language online -- that's not being codified as a cultural ideal.

Also, trigger warnings? Really? The amount of coddling of easily bruised egos here is mindboggling.

Every race, creed, gender, and nation has members who have seen events that are a burden on the psyche and could "trigger" on any number of imaginable things. You, however, are focused on first world, tech industry, mostly white women.

Are you going to also post trigger warnings for discussions of Soviet era politics? Lots of people lived through some pretty horrendous stuff. What about apartheid? Rwanda? Serbia? Growing up with a single parent? Childhood bullying? Poverty? Substance abuse? Where does it end? How do you even keep track of it all?

You don't. You're selfishly focused on a comparatively wealthy, privileged subgroup that apparently has nothing better to do -- despite a world filled with real problems, including sexism -- than bludgeon people for failing to highlight "triggers".

This sort of disproportionate nonsense is exactly why I can't feel safe or comfortable around your segment of the tech industry. Your sense of ethics and rectitude is skewed far outside the norm, objectively unsupportable and irrational.

[pseut]

>Gender dynamics are hard, for EVERYBODY.

I know. But they're probably harder when you're also making less money and having your credentials questioned.

[melindajb]

If you can override the animal instincts to kill other humans, why is it so hard to override your thoughts and just treat all other humans with the same respect you'd give your best friend, at least until you see a valid reason not to?

No one is saying that getting a beer after work is bad, or telling jokes is bad, or that thinking is bad. this is hand waving. We're asking you, again, to a) understand that lots of drinking leads to situations where women are harassed; b) telling sexist, racist, homophobic jokes is not appropriate in any professional context, and that you should be human enough to override your animal instincts.

To be frank, your post comes off as irrational, and immature. You sound very young, and very entitled.

[your_throwaway]

With the same respect I treat my best friend?

Well, first: my best friend is a woman. And could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a sexist joke?

My aforementioned best friend (who I have had this conversation with) as well as most of the women friends I've had this conversation with agree that things like "dongle" jokes are hilarious.

So are racist jokes (do you seriously not tell any racist jokes? Ever? Do you avoid all of contemporary stand up and sketch comedy while you're at it?)

And very young. Huh? Like how young? Possibly right around the age of most of the people who are attending conferences and hackathons? Right around that 20-30 year old range that constantly gets touted as the age of startup founders on hacker news?

I'm 29. Old by HN standards, but you're right: young.

[codr]

> but you're right: young.

You forgot entitled.

Also - racist jokes, really? Tell us a good one.

[Tossrock]

How does every racist joke start?

(Pause)

looks over both shoulders

[melindajb]

Just because your best friend is a woman doesn't mean you're incapable of being a sexist. For example, she might be one of those women who enforce some pretty crappy old patriarchial shit. I have no idea. But it's not evidence you can use to say you aren't sexist. Are you trolling?

I do not tell racist jokes. ever. period. Why would I ever risk offending someone I really care about for something so stupid? I enjoy Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, and Louis CK as much as the next person, but I make sure I understand why're they are funny, to laugh with them, not at them.

your simplistic thinking really makes me question a lot about you. Are you very young also? Perhaps you haven't heard stories from people you respect about the pain they've suffered in silicon valley? Because otherwise you wouldn't be so flippant, and so defensive about such things.

[sergiosgc]

The fact of the matter is that not telling racist jokes probably means you are racist. Mocking people for their faults is the most basic kind of humour. Stuff kids do in early school, to the point of being mean, and then scale back to socially acceptable levels. However, this is an humour class that never completely disappears. Whole comedian careers have been built on it (look at the TV show Seinfeld for an example).

When you actively avoid mocking someone because they have a visibly different skin tone, subconsciously you believe this is something they should be ashamed of. Racist, qed.

It is as ok to mock someone for being "african-american" as it is mocking someone for their closed Texan accent. And it is ok. Mock away, and take it in stride when it's your turn to be the target.

[your_throwaway]

Enlighten me.

And while you're at it: why is okay for Louis CK to make a racist joke, but not okay for you?

If the joke is hurtful, then shouldn't you be against Louis CK telling it? Why are you okay with that? Why are you giving him support for doing something hurtful?

And I didn't say I wasn't capable of being sexist because my best friend is a woman. I said that if I treated a woman at a conference the same way that I treated my best friend, I would probably come across as a creepy asshole.

Similarly, if I treated some guy walking down the street the same way that I treat my best friend, I'd probably get labeled as a creepy asshole.

I've known my best friend for over a decade. I'm close enough with her to have a shorthand for jokes, or mannerisms, that doesn't exist with random people I've just met.

My point was that your post is using some extremely faulty reasoning.

No I'm 12: who cares? What does it matter how old I am? Maybe I am a woman! Then what?

Does what I'm saying depend on my age, or its content?

Do you apply the same logic when assigning validity to things that men and women say? The content doesn't matter, just the person saying it?

That's...dare I say it? Possibly pretty sexist of you.

[jfarmer]

> And while you're at it: why is okay for Louis CK to make a racist joke, but not okay for you?

Why it is ok for the jester to mock the king, but not for the king to mock the jester?

On a related note, Louis CK is Mexican, as in a Mexican citizen born in Mexico. Spanish is his first language and he came to the US as a little kid.

[Dewie]

He's also pretty much as white as they get. He has mostly European ancestry, little indigenous American ancestry.

The subject was race, not nationality.

[melindajb]

Louis CK, to the best of my knowledge, is not considered a racist. I would not be the best judge of that as a white person, and when I am, I look to my black friends to tell me. I don't make them "explain" it to me. I just accept it. The know better than I do what makes something racist. And usually it's something I had never considered because of my white privilege.

The fault, is not in my logic, but your dogged insistence on reductionist thinking to the absurd. Most of the men around me know how not to be a creep, so I an assure it is possible to tell funny jokes, have beers with coworkers without harassment, and other such things. They will ask if they aren't certain, and they listen if I ask them to stop doing something.

That's what it's all about. Not reducing people to stereotypes. Giving respect immediately and willingly. At least until the other person demonstrates they aren't worth it.

So all this handwaving about not knowing how to behave in the world because the girls send mixed signals? Horseshit. my tribe of male friends, coworkers, mentors, advisors, and family is living proof that men do know how to behave honorably and respectfully in Silicon Valley, even Stanford trained engineers.

So instead of putting your questions at me, put them at yourself, why have you not yet learned what so many other successful men have learned?

[melindajb]

really, I eat downvotes for breakfast. so thanks!