[pessimizer]

There's no connection between the headline and the article, which not only doesn't examine the results of any women-only initiatives, but only mentions a single example (that it seems to approve of.)

>But there’s something wrong when we treat half the population like a minority or special interest group.

There's also something wrong when we treat half the population like baby breeding kitchen help, too. We remediate the damage done by open sexism through targeted help. When it comes to management, ownership, and government, women are not only a minority, they are an extreme minority.

>Women don’t need all the help we can get because we’re women.

No, that's why a sexist would help women. Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack. Women sometimes need help because they are generally smaller and lack upper body strength. If you can get by without it, feel free.

There's a temptation as a member of a discriminated against group who has found some success amongst the dominant group to use their own success and the success of their friends to argue that merit will always rise to the top. Don't do this, because you will be paraded as evidence that discrimination is over, and it's alright to withdraw from the ghettos and set them on fire.

If a few millionaires are enough to say that discrimination doesn't matter anymore, racism against blacks must have ended before slavery.

[ppprop]

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack."

Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

[pessimizer]

1. Men run everything.

2. Men often don't think of women as human.

3. Women are under attack by men.

I don't think these points are controversial.

1. Women are 50% of the workforce, but 4.5% of fortune 1000 CEO positions.

2. Women didn't get the right to vote in America until 50 years after black people, who were officially only partially human.

3. Is a characterization.

[growupkids]

Here's some official government sources to go along with this discussion.

Women earn the majority of bachelors, masters and doctorates:

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72

Women live longer than men:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

More women in the workforce have degrees than men:

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/education/c...

And some non government research papers:

Women choose safer jobs than men (which may explain some income gap differences):

http://www.nber.org/papers/w8574

And a study that suggests that men and women are paid the same:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/payscale-study-wome...

[pessimizer]

>Women earn the majority of bachelors, masters and doctorates

Wonderful. Its good that the efforts that were made to help women in education have borne so much fruit that we're starting (or were starting in the 90s) to worry about boys falling behind. That's a sign that the supports might eventually be alright to take away.

>Women live longer than men:

Since the stone age. Is this a discussion of jealousy, or sexism?

>Women choose safer jobs than men (which may explain some income gap differences):

>And a study that suggests that men and women are paid the same:

For the same jobs. Probably. I believe these studies and hate the X cents on a dollar deceptive statistic. The fact is, women don't have the same jobs as men, they have lower level ones due to prejudice and childbearing. I'd also argue that there are many high-skill jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and due to that domination are less respected and paid less. Even within female-dominated professions, management still somehow ends up dominated by men due to the "glass elevator."

[growupkids]

Here's another source, it appears there is no gender gap in pay:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-bigg...

It also appears the later differences in pay may have more to do with life choices. Such as raising a family, which believe it or not some women consider a higher priority than their careers. Blasphemy, I know, clearly a byproduct of the patriarchy.

[pessimizer]

"Comparing men and women job-by-job conceals the fact that men still dominate many of the highest-paying jobs. PayScale studied more than 120 occupation categories, from "machinist" to "dietician." Nine of the ten lowest-paying jobs (e.g.: child-care worker, library assistant) were disproportionately female. Nine of the ten highest-paying jobs (e.g.: software architect, psychiatrist) were majority male. Nurse anesthetist was the best-paid position held mostly by women; but an estimated 69 percent of better-paid anesthesiologists were male."

Blasphemy, I know, but it was your link.

edit: This is exactly the case I made, and it is the conclusion to the reference. I don't know what kind of dissonance it takes to downvote me for pointing it out.

[ps4fanboy]

Stop bringing rational and critical thinking to this debate, you obviously haven't checked your privilege or heard of the patriarchy.

[mkr-hn]

This is amusing in /r/TumblrInAction, but HN is best when the discussion is slightly above the level of watching monkeys fling poo at each other.

[ps4fanboy]

While I agree with you I was trying in a humors way to point out that these studies contradict a lot of what this debate is about and therefore will be ignored. Which looking at all the discussion around these studies seems likely.

[growupkids]

LOL. I needed a laugh, thanks. :)

[ppprop]

1. I can just as easily claim that most of those companies are owned by old people. Does this mean we, as a society, discriminate against young people? I'm not arguing that sexism used to be a big issue back when most of the companies you're using as an example were created. I'm saying that nowadays, it is an issue that I doubt is as legitimate as women groups and similar make it out to be.

2. Same reasoning as above. This used to be true, and is not anymore. Yes, not giving women the right to vote was bad. But now, they have the right to vote. The problem was solved.

3. Not sure what the merit of it is.

[pessimizer]

>1. I can just as easily claim that most of those companies are owned by old people.

Yes, you can. I would argue that being older means that you have had the time to accumulate skills, experience, and connections. What does being a man give you? Upper body strength?

>2. Same reasoning as above.

I missed that reasoning. Most companies are owned by old people (something that I'm not even sure is true), therefore there's no sexism?

[ppprop]

The point I was trying to make is that in the times many of those companies were created, sexism WAS a legitimate issue, which means that most of these companies are run by men. Nowadays, it is not nearly as big an issue as it is made out to be, but that does not magically infuse the old companies with 50% women. This is why using this statistic is inherently flawed, as the companies were simply created in a different time (if you don't believe me, check http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/. Very few of those companies are what you would call nouveau riche).

[pessimizer]

I would argue that the age of the company isn't what's important, but the age of the CEO. If a 150 year-old company has a 45 year old CEO, what does the age of the company have to do with it - unless you are arguing for long lasting traditions of discrimination that are invariant for a company.

[growupkids]

1. Men run everything.

Gross generalization. Clearly not true.

2. Men often don't think of women as human.

Another gross generalization, and your support for this is that a long time ago women couldn't vote, therefore often men don't think of women as human? By that twisted logic the statement Germany wants to invade France would still be true.

3. Women are under attack by men.

Laughably histrionic. Is that like the war on Christmas?

[growupkids]

Sorry, it won't let me reply any deeper. I'm glad you agree you are generalizing, even though you don't seem to want to acknowledge you're making gross generalizations. Either way, you do realize generalizing does not make your point valid. If anything, it's generally considered a fallacy and for good reason. And since you haven't refuted any of the facts I've posted, I'm glad that I've been able to help you learn the world isn't nearly as bad as you seem to have been lead to believe. Contrary to what you seem to think, men do not often think of women as less than human, men do not run everything (that's that generalization again), women do make the same money as men, more women get degrees than men, women live longer than men, and your generalization that men, not some men, but men are attacking women is also not true. Clearly all men are not attacking women. There is no war on women.

And do I think women are under attack by women? That's an interesting question, women do seem to be fairly angry and judgmental towards each other, anecdotally speaking. I dunno, that's a good question. Are women attacking women?

And clearly I think your uterus is unmoored. You nailed it in one. Bravo.

[pessimizer]

Fine, then I won't even accept that it is a generalization. Men actually run everything, and when there's a woman running something, there's ultimately a man running that woman.

>And since you haven't refuted any of the facts I've posted

None of the facts that you posted speak to your point that "the world isn't nearly as bad as you seem to have been lead to believe." You haven't shown me anything that I didn't know, but I enjoy the condescension.

>men do not often think of women as less than human,

saying it again doesn't make it true.

>women do make the same money as men,

No, they don't. Read your own references. Women make the same money in the same jobs as men, early in their careers.

>more women get degrees than men,

True.

>women live longer than men,

Again, what does that have to do with sexism?

>and your generalization that men are attacking women is also not true.

Bullshit.

[pessimizer]

>Gross generalization. Clearly not true.

Not a gross generalization, just a generalization. How many women have you had as a boss?

>2. Men often don't think of women as human.

Note the word "often" which means that this is not a generalization, but an uncontroversial observation.

>your support for this is that a long time ago women couldn't vote, therefore often men don't think of women as human?

No, that's just a reminder that this was the mainstream point of view probably within the lifetime of a women you know. I'm not going to make an argument that men often don't think of women as human like themselves. I would if I were asserting this to a Martian, but not anyone who has lived in any modern society.

>Laughably histrionic. Is that like the war on Christmas?

Are you telling me that I think that women are constantly under attack by men because my uterus has become unmoored?

[mekoka]

I saw your earlier interventions. Some of your arguments may be sound, but this one actually makes it harder to take you seriously and does a disservice to your cause. You might do better by arguing from a position that is grounded closer to reality (as in 2014 reality).

[pessimizer]

What argument? I'm not trying to make an argument - somebody called out three different things that I said, and I attempted to defend them.

I have absolutely no cause other than a factual basis for policy and actions.

[ps4fanboy]

keep in mind the common man hasnt been able to vote much longer than that either, before that it was just the aristocracy in power.

[pessimizer]

Much longer than since 1920? That's just not true.

[ps4fanboy]

Here is a history lesson, this one is the UK.

In 1800, the right to vote was based on wealth and gender (male). Less that 3 adults out of every 100 could vote. Since then, there have been some significant changes to the voting regulations:

1832 Reform Act. Extended the right to vote to certain leaseholders and householders. 5 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1867 Second Reform Act. Further extension of the voting regulations in counties and boroughs. 13 adults out of every 100 could vote, but still based on wealth.

1872 Secret Ballot Act. Introduced voting by secret ballot.

1884 Representation of the People Act. Any male occupying land or property with an annual rateable value of £10 could vote. 24 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1918 Representation of the People Act. All males over the age of 21 were given the vote. Women over 30 got the vote. Women could sit in the House of Commons as MPs. 75 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1928 Representation of the People Act. Uniform voting rights were extended to all men and women over the age of 21. 99 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1969 Representation of the People Act. The voting age was reduced to all men and women over the age of 18.

1985 Representation of the People Act. Voters who, at the time of an election, are abroad, either working or on holiday, may apply for a postal vote.

2000 Representation of the People Act. Introduced changes to electoral registration and extended postal vote provisions.

In terms of the US you will probably find something similar that for the most part it was land owners only who could vote.

[pessimizer]

Except in the US, it was 1870 when everybody but women got the vote.

[vezzy-fnord]

You're relying on absolutes and binaries, which has always been a very flawed method of determining any situation, as it ignores all forms of context, nuances and culture. The world isn't as simple as "Men prosper, women suffer." Not at all.

1. A group of men run most things.

2. A group of men often don't think of women as completely human.

3. I don't even know how to fix this.

[pessimizer]

>1. A group of men run most things.

I don't believe this. I don't know that there's a group of men that run things. What I'm saying is that as you move higher in the chain of management, you stop seeing women.

>2. A group of men often don't think of women as completely human.

I am not saying this. I am saying that often men don't think of women as fully human like themselves. I am not saying that there is a group of sexists that is causing all of the problems. I believe there are people who are very and openly sexist, and people that are less sexist and less open about it, and the bulk of us that just sometimes suffer from lazy thinking or ideological blinders.

>3. I don't even know how to fix this.

Support programs that help and encourage women.

[PavlovsCat]

As a guy, I wonder how one can miss this. I certainly had and have my fair share of WTF moments... at some point I even vowed to make a documentary with a hidden cam about the shit some men say about women behind their back, who act completely different to their faces, but I never got around to it. And frankly, I think some women don't really want to know. Stockholm syndrome comes to mind. So my heart jumps for joy about the strong women who do point (and cuss) this stuff out. I wouldn't know how to prove it to anyone else, but maybe they can prove the opposite to me... ?

[Tehnix]

"the shit some men say about women behind their back"

or the shit men say about other men

or the shit women say about men

or the shit women say about women

... I hardly think it's inherent to men only to vent their frustrations or thoughts about a person, regardless of gender, to another person/group.

And in the case of male speaking about females, I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're in general referring to sexually-undertoned comments about their appearances? I don't think anything will be able to take that away, since we are, as men, by nature (unless you're homosexual of course, but I'd say it's fair to call that a minority) attracted to women and vice verse...

[PavlovsCat]

FWIW I didn't downvote you, and upvoted you to undo that a little. If people disagree, let them use words instead of buttons, geez...

> I hardly think it's inherent to men only to vent their frustrations or thoughts about a person

Or their disrespect, for that matter. What gets me the most is the difference between "public face" and "bro face" I've seen with some, it can be quite the abyss. Sure it's just anecdotal, but my anecdotes are what they are. As a woman on reddit put it: some men are gorillas wearing men suits, and women, once burned, have to make super extra sure to confirm they're not dealing with one of those before making themselves vulnerable.

I know to a degree this is true the other way around, too... like, I once had a SO who basically wanted to marry me, have kids, and sleep around behind my back (this is not speculation either, she basically ended up admitting as much), and I know another woman who stopped taking the pill because she wanted a baby from her SO, who didn't want one. Not cool at all, and that the child turned out great and they both love it, though they're not together anymore, doesn't change that. But still, for every one such story I know, I know 3 about things like cigarette burns or rape. Still anecdotal, sure, but those anecdotes do irk me.

Ask women close to you about this. Hopefully they will tell you I am full of shit. But maybe, just maybe, they will relate some things to you that will make your toenails curl up.

> And in the case of male speaking about females, I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're in general referring to sexually-undertoned comments about their appearances?

No, I was thinking of more vicious things as that, more like something akin to racist jokes. Though reducing people to their sexuality sucks too, I guess that can go both ways. The power differential however, and the smugness and cruelty it results in for some men, doesn't, not really.

> I don't think anything will be able to take that away, since we are, as men, by nature (unless you're homosexual of course, but I'd say it's fair to call that a minority) attracted to women and vice verse...

I'm not talking about being attracted to, I'm talking about looking down upon, and seeking to control and use. And NEVER would I say "all men do this" -- but enough, too many men, did/do this around me, and the more intelligent a person is, the more subtle and convoluted it gets. Sometimes it's "just" a friendly, but condescending attitude.. not as bad as other things, but still not good enough.

[athesyn]

Maybe he doesn't live in a modern liberal society. I doubt it though.

[pessimizer]

Any particular point to object to, or just a general speculation about who I am?

[athesyn]

I don't care about arguments with feminists. I'm not a white male or a white woman so those terminologies don't apply to me. It takes time for sexism, racism to work its way out of the system but most of what you said are ridiculous visceral lies.

[pessimizer]

I don't care about arguments with athesyn. Care to point out a ridiculous visceral lie, or was it enough just to tell feminists just what you think of them?

[gdwatson]

"There's also something wrong when we treat half the population like baby breeding kitchen help, too."

Is that really your view of stay-at-home mothers?