[gregd]

As a 46 year old, white male with almost 20 years of IT experience, what I hear a lot of these startups saying is, "We don't really give a shit about you, your life or your time. We want to suck out a decades worth of input in 2-3 years and when you burn out, fuck you. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out."

Who wants to live like that? These expectations will continue to gradually get WORSE...if you can imagine that. Until (and if) they run out of new recruits who don't know any better.

The fact that a startup founder tweeted "disappointment" about a very personal choice that a developer made makes me inclined to believe that I would run very, very, very far away from working for this person.

[jasonkester]

You see that as a downside. I see it as an upside.

I'm in the same place as you (42/20), and I've always loved working for startups. Just make sure they're paying you by the hour (contracts are best) and let them suck as much of your experience out as they need. And be sure to charge accordingly, since the thing you're selling isn't your butt in a seat, but the 20 years of accumulated knowledge and that giant \code\ folder on your hard drive with the solution to every problem they could conceivably have solved half a dozen times for previous gigs.

Incidentally, "2 years, then dodge the door" is a great way to get one's self acquainted with tons of technology and stay up to date on the flavor of the month while always having a good explanation for moving from job to job. Better still is "6 months then straight into the ground", having build something big and cool from a green field and watched the kids burn through their VC while buying you and the dev team fun toys to play with.

I guess it's all about outlook. If you look at it as them taking advantage of you, well, maybe they are. If you look at it as them needing you a lot more than you need them, well, that's a pretty fun (and lucrative) place to be.

Edit: To be clear, in the above scenario, 40 hour work weeks (or whatever makes sense for you) are non-negotiable. They are free to work 60 hour weeks if they like. Your contract should include the understanding that you don't plan to follow suit. Extra hours should be rare, on your terms, and well paid.

[slantyyz]

I have a slightly different view (43/20).

I like to work for small companies that have a bit of startup thinking (let's get things done, build cool stuff and be open minded about fresh and contrarian ideas) but that are run by people who have a more balanced view of how much time their employees should work.

At my stage in life (speaking only for myself), I don't buy into those BS sales jobs from hiring managers of getting rich on options, working until you're burnt out because you're changing the world, etc.

[rfnslyr]

Only work on contract. Only bill by hour, day, or week (depending on how good you are). I don't believe in loyalty to a company or scene. I'm here to make money to fund my own life, that's it.

[slantyyz]

It is one way to go, but I think it's still important to set limits.

Getting paid by the hour by a company willing you pay you overtime to be overworked still means that there's a risk of burning out.

[rfnslyr]

I charge more for hours beyond 9-5.

[ubernostrum]

Or you could, you know, do what the headline says: don't try to force a style of work that you like onto everyone.

Just as other people may not share your taste in food or music, they may also not share your taste in work environments or patterns. And they are not wrong to have different tastes than you do.

[pelemele]

This. Like it!

[crucini]

But what do you think causes burnout? Doing 10 years of work in 3 years? To me, that's energizing. What causes burnout for me is doing the same thing too many times.

Also, doing too little work over too much time with too many chefs spoiling the broth.

Also, repeatedly building things that get scrapped due to a change in direction.

So I've found startups less burnout-inducing than big companies.

[rfnslyr]

I've interviewed for a few startups recently. They mentioned "startup hours". When I drilled deeper into their hours, it basically meant you're on call 24/7.

I asked them to compensate me 400% of my wage to work hours which I'm not supposed to and they scoffed at me. I told them to take a hike.

Do not ever put a job on a pedestal simply because OMG JOB! You are worth more than you think, and nobody is worth sacrificing personal health for someone elses business that may or may not become profitable.

They need you more than you need them.

[crucini]

Almost every employer I've had has emphasized the extreme hours before making an offer. It has never turned out to be a problem.

Only once did I object, and I didn't get the offer that time.

I think they say this stuff because it's part of their self-image; they really believe they're working crazy hours when in fact they're working 45-50 hours/week. Also because they want to screen out those who really want banker's hours and have no flexibility.

[rfnslyr]

Who on earth wants banking hours (I'm assuming you're referencing the hours that were outlined in recent articles on HN)? I work in a bank and we're forced to not work anywhere beyond 37.5 or they're liable..

Anyways, I went on trial at one of the few startups that offered to hire me as a contractor. The hours were truly insane. Developers practically lived there, which is why I think startup offices are so much more than the standard corporate office (having video game rooms, lounges, free breakfast/lunch/dinner, other perks I'd rather make $ instead of).

3 of the 5 times where "extreme hours" were outlined, they really have been, extreme hours, hence why I'm so "extremely" turned off from your job so much so I charge a crazy premium to work those hours.

[snowwrestler]

"Banker's hours" or "banking hours" is a longstanding U.S. idiom for very short days. It comes from a time when retail bank lobbies were only open from, say, 10:00am to 2:00pm, Monday through Thursday.

I'm exaggerating slightly for effect, but probably not much. Going to the bank used to be a highly inconvenient thing for people who worked jobs that did not let them pop out for an errand whenever they felt like it (manufacturing, retail, service, etc). So the term "banker's hours" also has a connotation of the privileges of the rich--people living lives of leisure and freedom. (including the bankers themselves of course)

[rfnslyr]

Ah yes that is true we can leave pretty much whenever we want for however long, as long as the work gets done. Thank you for reminding me of yet another perk that I didn't fully take in.