[jwdunne]

It comes down to time. My employer pays me money with the understanding I will dedicate a slot of time to working solely on the projects he needs me to work on.

Yes, he's paying me to deliver. If he was paying for my time and I wasn't delivering then there's a problem. If I deliver, however, I can't just get up and walk out in the middle of the day.

[moe]

If I deliver, however, I can't just get up and walk out in the middle of the day.

Then you're working outside the IT-sector or in an old fashioned company.

In modern IT-companies (most startups that I know, including some with >150 people that barely qualify as startup anymore) the above is perfectly acceptable and normal for programmers.

You are expected to meet your deadlines, to be present for appointed meetings, and usually during a fixed set of "core working hours". Sometimes there are Sprints or "crunches" during which everyone is expected to be a little more present than usual.

In these companies nobody cares what you do with your remaining time as long as you meet the above criteria. Quite a few of my co-workers I've never met in person or only after already skyping with them for months. Others I'll see every time I hit an office because they're more the 9-5 (or 11-22..) type of guys. The line between "employee" and "consultant" is blurring rapidly.

[pc86]

If I had to pick one thing I dislike about HN, this is it.

Not everybody works for a startup, and not everybody works in San Francisco. The majority of programmers work in 9-5 office jobs where if you left every day at 4 PM you'd be fired as soon as your supervisor(s) caught on. It doesn't mean you're working outside of IT (although that's likely) and it sure as hell doesn't mean you're working in an old fashioned company.

Do you think any bank, healthcare provider, or BigCo business lets the programmers come in whenever they want and leave whenever their work is "done?"

[chris_mahan]

They are very good about making sure there's always more work for you to do.

I work as a coder in a business unit at Bank of America. What you say is true, to some extent.

If I need to take off for the day at 1 pm I just tell my boss I've got to go take care of some personal stuff and he's completely ok with that, since he knows I get my work done.

[pc86]

We're both lucky then in terms of programmers in BigCos. I'm a developer in a non-IT Fortune 1k company and it's very much the same here (honestly I didn't expect BOA would be that good to you). Truthfully, if I had to leave at 1 PM I'd probably have to take a half day of vacation, but 3-4 PM? Hasn't been a problem the few times I've asked.

3-4 PM every day? "Get out of my office."

[chris_mahan]

Well, I don't make a habit of it. Yesterday I remoted from home until 11 am, then I took the wife and sick kid to doctor and that ate the afternoon.

It helps to have bosses with small kids.

[moe]

Not everybody works for a startup, and not everybody works in San Francisco.

Which I didn't suggest, I think?

Do you think any bank, healthcare provider, or BigCo business lets the programmers come in whenever they want and leave whenever their work is "done?"

No, that's why I qualified my comment with "In modern IT-companies".

Sorry, do you also disagree with something that I actually wrote? ;)

[pc86]

> Which I didn't suggest, I think?

I didn't mean to suggest you said everybody works for a startup or in SF, but the tone of the post was such that I felt you were implying most (or even a large minority) of programmers do.

> No, that's why I qualified my comment with "In modern IT-companies".

Upon rereading it a few times, it's likely I misunderstood the tone of your comment, but I took it to mean essentially "this is how it is for the majority of programmers[, and if it's any other way that's ridiculous and there's no reason for it]." I have lived and worked my entire life on the east coast of the US. Because I'm not in NYC which is probably the closest the SF this side of Austin, the odds of me getting a job where I'm not required to be in my chair from 8 AM to 5 PM is slim to none. I think even across the US that sort of freedom only applies to a very slim (and very lucky) minority.

[mprovost]

The "core working hours" at any startup that I've worked at have been 40 hours or close to it. The expectation is that you work more than that, so sure you can leave "early" but that's based on a pretty high amount of hours you're going to spend in the office.

[jwdunne]

I work for a healthcare marketing company as the only programmer. A large part of what I do during the day isn't programming really but rather a big mix of stuff. It's definitely IT though.

Of course, I program. This isn't anything revolutionary and is mainly database CRUD-type stuff but this is mostly what the big players in private healthcare need in the UK.

I often do very menial tech. support such as showing someone how to set up an email address in Outlook (yes, this actually happens).

Clients often need their websites amending in some small way so I have to curate and distribute all of these requests from all our clients. These are mostly very small, trivial things like remove an outdated banner or adding a patient testimonial. These flood in great numbers though, which is where the challenge is.

I've spent time recruiting i.e vetting CVs, interviewing and then making a decision.

There's probably even more stuff I do in my day to do, such as basic sys admin, graphics/web design (full websites, banners, sidebars, newsletters, landing pages), on-page SEO, copywriting and branded social media pages (we abstain from actual social media campaigns because we haven't seen measurable results within our niche at all - we may be doing this wrong).

We're a services company, we're not a startup and 7 hour workday is usually filled up quite easily and makes sense here. In fact, we have to be pretty careful about scheduling our workload over several days so that things get done on time. We do, however, have quiet periods, like immediately after New Year.

[tmh88j]

>It comes down to time.

>If he was paying for my time and I wasn't delivering then there's a problem

No, he's paying you to deliver and that's it. Your time is required to do work. Your time is worthless to them, what you produce is, however.

Robots require less time to do many tasks, and they can accomplish more of them. They're paying you for output, not time.

[jwdunne]

It's besides my core point really. In fact, it reinforces it since that's pretty much what I mean anyway.

The reason why I bring time into it is because, as I've said, if there was absolutely nothing to do, I couldn't just get up and leave mid-day. If there's nothing else to work on, stuff will be found for me and I can continue to use that time productively.

In my contract, I'm obligated to work 5 days a week, 7 hours per day. My income is worked out based on my value and the number of working days in a month. This is what I'm getting at - I'm obligated to spend that much time in the office, delivering.

If you rework what I said about outsourcing my workload so that it removes time and is replaced with delivering, it'd still make sense. Now that you mention, I prefer the sound of it:

My boss pays me to deliver. If I outsourced my workload, I could deliver more. My employer will then increase my pay.

[jiggy2011]

This depends on individual agreements between employer/employee at the end of the day and also on the nature of the job.

There are certainly situations where it is advantageous to have your employees sitting at their desks in your building. So you know where they are if some emergency situation arises or if you need to ask them some questions or even just to make the place look big/busy.

[tmh88j]

>This depends on ....and on the nature of the job.

I agree in some situations, but this was a programmer. Unless he was a manager that has to oversee others, there's no need for a mandatory appearance

>So you know where they are if some emergency situation arises

That's completely irrelevant to the situation. A company does not profit when it's down for an emergency.

[bphogan]

At least half the people I've seen on Hacker News doing startups want people to relocate to NYC or SF. Apparently lots of folks think face to face / butt in chair time is important for "team building" or something.

[jiggy2011]

There's definitely situations where you might want to have a programmer in the office (or at least "on the clock"). Perhaps your system goes down and you need it fixed ASAP, you don't want to be calling the programmer and hoping he hasn't gone to the movies and turned his phone off.

Likewise with mentoring/helping other staff, sometimes this is just far easier to do when you are physically present.

[tmh88j]

>Perhaps your system goes down and you need it fixed ASAP

So you're saying, all this person is hypothetically doing is sitting around waiting for something to break, presumably at night? You don't think the company would delegate other tasks as well?

>Likewise with mentoring/helping other staff, sometimes this is just far easier to do when you are physically present.

That's not benefiting the company in any way? How is that just "your time"

[jiggy2011]

My point is that it is often beneficial to the company to know that you will definitely be available during certain hours.

Obviously you are going to be doing other work during these hours assuming that there is something to do.

[JanezStupar]

In general yes. However in practice employers expect total dedication and focus, deliveries while _at the same time_ counting minutes.

Employers are a lot like women. They have a hard time making up their mind about what they really want. Everything being the default answer.

[JabavuAdams]

> In general yes. However in practice employers expect total dedication and focus, deliveries while _at the same time_ counting minutes.

Largely true.

> Employers are a lot like women. They have a hard time making up their mind about what they really want. Everything being the default answer.

This is silly. You're playing in to a narrative that's acceptable in some sub-cultures but that is basically ridiculous once you know enough people and try to debunk handed-down narratives.

[Fargren]

Try delivering your reply without the sexism. What you said is offensive.

[JanezStupar]

I am sorry. It is true, didn't think of it at the time of writing.

[transitionality]

Great observation! Women are often offended by accurate characterizations of their behavior.

[rondon]

When you purchase a product or service do you ever consider how long someone spent making that product/service when deciding what to buy?

Imagine someone saying something like "That Toyota Car is exactly what I'm looking for, but I know that the workers at the GM factory spent way more time building the GM car, so I'm going to buy that GM car instead."

[jiggy2011]

Not so with products, but many services are charged by the hour.

[rondon]

Obviously! If I purchased 1 hour of Day Care I would expect to receive 1 hour of day care.

However, if I paid someone to clean my house I would expect it to be clean after they were done. I don't care how long it takes. If it takes 10 hours and the floors a filthy I'm going to be upset. If it takes 1 hour and everything is very clean I'm going to be happy.

[jchrisa]

Really? I'm a big fan of delivering and then spending less time in the office.