[ionwake]

I know some of the younger folk may not realise reality is stranger than fiction, but I too have been on a "work mandated drink alchohol bus" where I remember even though I was young, I was terrified the whole time wondering why we were being forced to drink infront of C suite; forced on a hell ride through the black country ( Thats a region in England).

One might think it was naive and odd for me as a young autistic person to be so scared and negative, but sure enough, the next day the best contractor in the company was fired at 9am for calling the CEO an "alright c*nt" during the pub crawl.

The C word being used a token of affection around these parts, was perhaps not the true transgression which was, not to understand, that it was NOT a social function, but a horrifying legal flexing of soft hierarchical power, for purposes of satiating C suite ego, and humiliating everyone beneath them.

[chrisldgk]

I remember at the ad agency I used to work at (somewhere around 2018) we used to have a happy hour every Friday where from 5pm onwards all drinks (including booze) in the cafeteria were free, which led to people of all departments including C-Suite to get together and drink. I remember it as a good time though, I don’t remember anything ever happening that led to people having repercussions for employees. Then again, this is German drinking culture and the stiffest drink you could have was wine, so people wouldn’t usually get wasted, just tipsy.

The Christmas parties were a different breed though. HR definitely had a lot of work to do after those.

[lelanthran]

When I was still in my early 20s, at my first office job, drinks after hours (beer, wine) were free from the company kitchen.

Only took part once (because I was new, first week and all), saw how openly employees spoke to the directors (luckily nothing came of it), and never again in my life ever consumed alcohol in front of a boss.

As GP said, it's a full on soft power thing - always keep your wits about you when in the presence of colleagues and bosses.

There is no safe space at work; you can be fired!

[canpan]

Japan here and there is a word for it "nominication" for nomu (to drink) and communication. Instead of Christmas party we have a year end party (bonenkai). Otherwise reads the same. It's common and many people actually like it. There can be negatives, like the pressure to drink too much. But I never heard of anyone getting fired in all my social circle.

[yencabulator]

Outside of Japan, the idea of bureikō is not necessarily similarly part of the culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomikai#Nomikai_etiquette

[stavros]

I've been to a work Christmas party where one of my coworkers got so drunk that she couldn't talk and kept grabbing my arm and walking with me. I don't drink at all, so it was a bit surreal, and, compared to Greeks, Brits are on just a whole other level on the normalisation of alcohol consumption.

Obviously there were no repercussions, and when I mentioned something the next day, I got "you're not supposed to talk about that stuff in the office", which was interesting context for me. The drunk colleague and I went on to become really good friends.

[nasalgoat]

Here in Canada I worked at a company that had free alcohol on Fridays, and it got to the point where people would invite their friends - non-employees - to come and drink. They'd all get so blackout drunk they'd pass out in the lounge and the customer service staff would have to climb over them on Saturday morning to get a coffee.

That particular perk was removed after a couple of months.

[not-kinsale-joe]

UK had the most unhinged work drinking culture I had ever seen.

[psd1]

Amen. I only got my first job in tech because i put away 6 pints in the pub after the interview.

We conducted interviews after lunch, for this exact purpose. I saw good candidates interview but decline the pub afterwards - they did not get offers.

That company had at least two pub sessions a week, typically running to six rounds or more. We hit our medically-recommended maximum weekly intake by Tuesday; Fridays were carnage.

[72deluxe]

This sounds like hell. At one place I worked, they had free pizza on Fridays so the developers could sit around and socialise. If only they realised that socialising was the last thing the developers wanted to do (many of us on the spectrum) and awkwardly standing around chewing whilst avoiding eye contact; I wonder if they still do it?

Pubs sound even worse.

[alibarber]

I know this sounds awful - but perhaps hiring people that would turn their workplace into what you just described was exactly what they (as an organisation, not necessarily individually) wanted to avoid, just, perhaps not by overtly saying it.

[72deluxe]

Perhaps, but if they wanted any of their 6 million lines of COM-laden C++ to continue working into the future, they'd need those sort of people.

[piguin]

No, that's a bit reverse prejudice and also a bit wrong on assumptions. If you bring in people who are levels above they aren't inherently on the spectrum and it's once you bring them in that you have a dependence on finding more instead of working at a complexity and expertise level that might be more maintainable.

[sillyfluke]

Their numbers might be dwindling, but I would wager there are still some devs out there burning the candle from both ends.

To be fair, I find US forced company events like this way more unbearable than UK/European ones. In the US, the incessant combination of excessive alcohol with neurotic self-awareness gets you to another level of hell.

In another FAANG, the L7s were complaining that the level of office machinations that were occuring stateside was off the charts compared to the offices overseas.

UK afterwork pub culture should be under UNESCO cultural protection at this point, I'm always surprised it's lasted this long. One would have to admit it's fended off the decreasing consumption of alcohol in the new generation impressively even though they may despise the tradition.

[wiether]

I see lots of small consulting companies doing weekly/monthly lunch/dinner events with "everyone" and then boasting about it on LinkedIn, with pictures of the tables.

You can clearly see who are the consulting people, and who are the HR/marketing ones based on who's got fake smiles, and who looks like they are dead inside.

Not only it's more of a redflag than anything, but also, since they are all doing it, what's the goal?

[zeristor]

What about IR35?

If a contractor partakes they are deemed to be a permie, and their soul is taxed for eternity, or the end of the tax year, whichever one comes first.

[oliwarner]

> good candidates interview but decline the pub afterwards - they did not get offers

That's one hell of a lawsuit you're opening yourself up to there. People who don't drink have significant overlap with protected classes.

[asdfasvea]

Not trying to go ad hominem, but that's a very ignorant statement.

1. Which ones? I used to be able to stereotype with the best of them, but I cant quickly come up with any protected class that is assigned as teetotalers.

2. Saying you're not hiring someone because they don't drink is a perfectly valid reason for not hiring someone, even if it's a cover for not hiring them because of protected class membership. The laws protecting protected classes are super weak. It is virtually impossible to prove that is the sole reason they weren't hired. All you need is an actual other reason to not hire them--and of course don't put into writing that the real reason is their protected class membership.

[lwelyk]

Pregnant women are not supposed to drink.

Many religions discourage or disallow drinking.

I believe a recovered/recovering alcoholic could be considered a protected class.

Many medical conditions or medications cannot be combined with alcohol.

[peroxy]

You can go to the pub and order a non alcoholic drink.

[oliwarner]

Saying they won't get the job if they don't come out for drinks excludes (on characteristic) recovering alcoholics, pregnant women, and about a quarter of the world's population on religious grounds.

And just more broadly, some people have lives, family where they can't just be expected out on the piss in the afternoon.

Admitting it on forum is the in. Just like admitting you've been working while up on ket.

[chronos00]

Religion is a protected class, and many religions don’t drink. If the reason they don’t drink is their religion, it isn’t a valid reason to state for not hiring them. Yes, most hr people in this case would use some other alternate reason that isn’t linked to the protected class.

[nickkell]

They could have had an orange juice

[DANmode]

> cant quickly come up with any protected class that is assigned as teetotalers

Religious or spiritual belief.

[gib444]

It's particularly difficult to bring a suit against a company for their hiring and firing practices due to difficulty in acquiring solid proof.

The excuse is always culture fit, if that even gets recorded anywhere...

[regexorcist]

Indeed, and I kinda miss it. My first couple IT jobs were right in Central London and we would all religiously meet at the pub after work, along with hundreds from other companies of all kinds. The banter was glorious.

[alibarber]

Same - in Soho on a nice (or even not that nice) Friday (or Monday, or Thursday) the whole place would just be one big open air pub. You'd meet so many great people - the atmosphere was just wonderful.

Then COVID came around and I also moved to Finland where that sort of thing is just unheard of.

[jamesfmilne]

Yeah, I worked in Soho for about 14 years and most Thursdays were out at the Pillars of Hercules or Dog & Duck. Fridays are for the out-of-towners.

The company has moved to Bermondsey now, and to be fair the drinks-after-work culture seems to still going fairly strong around this part of town.

The biggest spanner in the works has been my cohort all having kids and not having the spare time to socialise after work.

Definitely miss all that. My liver & pancreas don't miss it though, so it's probably for the best.

[nickkell]

Similarly I moved to Germany. The office here is mostly deserted by 16:00. In a way I respect their ability to completely split their work and social lives, but it's not particularly fun for me - especially starting from scratch in a new city.

[ajb]

While the alcohol consumption can be a bit nuts, the UK has a relatively strong cultural tradition that what happens in the pub stays in the pub. That makes it a useful low-risk way to air work issues that would not be raised in a work meeting, either because criticism would be taken as an offense, or just because the person raising them would not get to speak to the person that needs to hear.

Of course, there's nothing enforcing that managers respect it. The main mechanism is that many managers realise it's in their interests to be able to hear unvarnished truths, and for their team to be able to relieve their feelings outside work instead of inside. And for them to be able to get to know their team better. But not all have the integrity or humility to do so.

[stasomatic]

I was in London a couple of months ago. That day there were 2 (or demonstrations), something to do with Palestine and the other with internal UK politics, around the Big Ben / Buckingham palace. Ended up dragged into to the current of the latter on, could basically body surf If I had an inclination. It seemed everyone was drunk, women / men, old/ young. I didn't know you get so drunk on beer. Also, was the first time I've ever seen portable open urinals, where grown man took out their Johnsons in public and released the beer back into the wild.

[thom]

My first job out of university was with a large local news organization. It's the only place I've worked that had beer on tap in its cafeteria (from 11am). You haven't seen workplace alcoholism until you've worked with a county cricket correspondent.

[gadders]

It's dropped off now. It was better in the 90s.

[rwmj]

It was pretty mad in the 90s, but I don't recall anyone ever being forced into it at companies I worked for. A company mandated "alcohol bus" sounds ridiculous then and now.

[noir_lord]

> A company mandated "alcohol bus" sounds ridiculous then and now.

Sounds like a law suit waiting to happen.

[GJim]

We're not American!

[gadders]

Yes, fair. I think the default for a pub lunch would be to drink, but it was never mandatory.

[dmos62]

Coxnfused. Was it more unhinged in the 90s or less compared to now?

[gadders]

More unhinged and better, especially in banks. I had one senior stakeholder that would come back from the Pub on a Friday and complete change all his previous decisions.

I think my lunchtime record was 4 1/2 pints. Another IT guy on the same session had keys to the building's small data room so let himself in and had a kip.

[fakedang]

When I joined the UK division of a bank, back in 2016, we had the help staff wheel drinks carts around the house evey Friday at tea time. Adding Bombay Sapphire to your tea was pretty much the norm.

Didn't stay long because I got a PE offer at an American firm in their London office very quickly, and the culture there was so staid and lonely in comparison.

Part of the reason why we have an office bar with a bartender too set up at my current office. I don't drink, but nothing like drinks to help with bringing people together right after work.

[gadders]

I remember one head of trading had a fridge in his office and various bottles of whiskey for a cheeky drink.

[dmos62]

I doubt I could walk properly after having 4+ pints in a 1-2 hour window. Presuming it's 4%+ alcohol. You either need to be pretty young or have a pretty accustomed liver, or is it just me?

[gadders]

I would have been mid to late 20s. I can't swear I was very productive afterwards. Sleeping in a toilet cubicle was also a thing.

University in the UK is (or was) a great training ground for livers.

[c0n5pir4cy]

More unhinged - but a lot of people preferred it that way. To be really clear it's still pretty unhinged and even a decade ago it was much more unhinged.

[alibarber]

Being from the UK I’m pretty sure they mean more unhinged.

To be fair I did enjoy the ‘unhingedness’ but I’m also appreciating that being at least a decade younger was also great.

[ownagefool]

There was more drinking in the 90s.

You can decide whether that was better or worse.

[GJim]

> UK had the most unhinged work drinking culture I had ever seen

I prefer the term 'enlightened'.

Here in Blighty, if somebody got rat-arsed at an office party, photocopied their arse and puked in the Yucca plant, they would be regarded as an absolute legend (providing they didn't make a habit of it).

[galangalalgol]

Have the recent studies indicating just how dangerous alcohol consumption is made any impact. Losing a few neurons was one thing but some of the studies don't put it as much less dangerous than tobacco. New guidance in the US is there is no safe quantity and no one should have more than one serving a day. I know a lot of younger sw devs in the US that simply do not drink ever. I once would have said that was a little unusual, but now it is the norm. I suspect it will be stigmatized akin to smoking not that far into the future.

[butlike]

Everything kills you. At least alcohol feels good.

[galangalalgol]

Yeah, but its always a trade right? Heroin would kill me too fast for the upside. The trade on alcohol wasn't what I thought it was. I think there are better options. Says I as I lift a cider.

[Earw0rm]

Mostly in the past tense now, for better or worse.

[gib444]

UK here too. I've seen so many people fired after a work event with a free bar I'm starting to wonder if it's an HR strategy (eg to weed out the cocky sales people who would end up embarrassing the company. It's a trial run for late nights with clients)

> NOT a social function, but a horrifying legal flexing of soft hierarchical power, for purposes of satiating C suite ego, and humiliating everyone beneath them.

Very well described!

[ionwake]

First compliment in living memory on HN thank you

[cosmodisk]

I had a few company events that could easily become the foundation for one of those films where the main characters wake up in the morning in some random Asian country. No matter how crazy people go in these parties, there's always someone watching it and taking mental notes. I stopped getting too drunk in these events since I got into more senior Nowadays my aim is usually to rescue my colleagues and get them home safely:)

[ljm]

At risk of sounding like a grump, once I started at a company where almost everyone is partnered up and has kids, and almost everyone basically has nothing to talk about except their partners and kids, I had the perfect incentive to stay away from almost all social events. Or stick around for an hour at most because of how boring it is.

It became pretty clear that drinking culture in a lot of places develops around people having a lot in common, and certainly becomes worse when one of those things in common is 'enjoying drinking'.

I don't mind this. I had all of my 20s and most of my 30s for drinking after work. Now it's not really something I care about.

[TFNA]

Me, I've embraced occupational pubgoing as a childless person in my forties because unlike other social activities, it is a way to avoid boring people with children. At least in my country, those men get forced to stay at home, the missus won't allow them to go out socially into the evening.

[sEver_codEs]

Narrator: The CEO wasn't in fact, an "allright c*nt" after all.

[ionwake]

I just laughed out loud on the train

[whateverboat]

I don't drink at work. It's simple as that. I treat every retreat as work trip. I am professional. No gossip, nothing.

[croisillon]

i'd believe the C-word is naturally made for the C-suite

[varispeed]

I remember calling the whole board "cunts" to their faces. They all laughed. Then I remember CEO only in his underwear emptying bottle of whisky into his mouth, shouting "I'll fucking fuck everyone in this bitch!" and then collapsing. His PA and another employee then dragged him to his room. The 2000s were wild.

Now I consider anything involving alcohol as abusive. If company has a drinking "culture" or going to pub after work, I nope out.

[crosskayla]

I love the way you wrote that. Also your profile is hilarious.

[archibaldJ]

put them into a Cartesian Closed Category and you an emulate the whole thing with LLMs.

[xnx]

Was the CEO David Brent?

[DoctorOetker]

This is precisely what Stalin did during the Great Terror, getting the rest of the leadership drunk in order to learn their true opinions, or discover who drunk-subtly winked at whom during what remark, etc.