[rtpg]

I'm a bit worried this is intro'ing the classic problem we have in Bazel land, where everyone is having to show up with their own sort of packaging scripts etc instead of using upstream tooling one way or another.

I had the impression `zig` already has stuff like `zig cc`. Would... would `zig make` be an impossible proposition? Maybe that makes no sense.

[kingstnap]

zig make is zig build.

I haven't kept my zig skills sharp enough but zig build and the build.zig file basically lets you create a dag of steps and create various targets. It's basically make but the programming language is zig itself and the associated code happens to be in the standard library.

https://ziglang.org/documentation/0.16.0/std/#std.Build

https://ziglang.org/learn/build-system/

[nvme0n1p1]

> would `zig make` be an impossible proposition?

There are just too many C/C++ build systems out there. If you wanted to cover a majority of projects in the wild, you'd also need `zig cmake`, `zig automake`, `zig ninja`, `zig msbuild` and more. Not worth it imho.

[pornel]

And it's not even a matter of supporting a build system. Each build script for each build system is its own snowflake with its own custom method of finding or building its dependencies, its own method of configuring optional features, etc.

Sorting that out and unifying it for every project is basically the tedious job that Linux distros do.

[Defletter]

This is something that bothers me about languages that proclaim C/C++ compat because it's almost exclusively just talking about the ABI. I will say that Zig's build system is definitely one of the better ones, just look at the sqlite3 repo: it just points to the amalgamation zip and compiles it statically, meaning you can compile it with whichever flags you want, knowing it's guaranteed to work exactly how you want. Even though I personally don't use sqlite, I cannot help but appreciate the simplicity here, whereas other systems languages with C/C++ compat (eg: D) cannot do this.

With that said, Zig falls well short when dependencies have more involved build systems that are too obnoxious to recreate, eg: libevent. I have a bit of a sentimental attachment to libevent and would love to use it within my Zig projects, but the only viable options are: 1) dynamically link; 2) have two [or more] separate build steps; or 3) wait until allyourcodebase does the obnoxious work for me. None of which are appealing so I end up using different libraries just for the build-system integration. And by their nature of being Zig libraries, they're usually less known, less battle-tested, and riskier to use because it's more likely to be some random guy's side project.

Putting aside the StackOverflow tier "why would you ever do/want that?" troll argument, the issue is that I'm being obstructed from using the libraries I want to use over build system incompatibilities. It feels somewhat similar to the complaint about having two [or more] languages within the same codebase.

[nvme0n1p1]

Yeah, I tend to bail out and just use @cImport and linkSystemLibrary, for exactly this reason.

[skywal_l]

RIP @cImport.

[ghthor]

I think Nix can help you here; as you can delegate all the make/cmake/ninja handling to Nix package derivations and you final package can consume a bunch of .a files from them.

[peesem]

you _can_ just tell zig build to call make (std.Build.addSystemCommand, https://ziglang.org/documentation/0.16.0/std/#std.Build.addS...). the only benefits of an inbuilt make would be not having to install it and that it could maybe intercept calls to external compilers and replace them with `zig cc` or something similar but i get the impression that supporting nontrivial make scripts would be very hard

[rtpg]

so then my glib question: what is the purpose of this project?

It does look like for some projects it's almost entirely "just declare the dep tree" (https://github.com/allyourcodebase/boringssl), + the tiniest patch.

But what's going on in grpc for example? Like this build file https://github.com/allyourcodebase/grpc/blob/master/build.zi...... why is this build file in this repo? Is the grpc makefile no bueno?

Efforts to pull out information from existing build systems (if possible, ofc) means that you don't have to spend your time _rewriting build scripts_.

I don't know if it's really possible. Maybe this is step .. 4 of 34 to getting there. Just wondering if there's an alternative here that doesn't involve rewriting build scripts

Maybe a part of the pitch here is to just upstream these build scripts so that ones makefile becomes "just" `zig build`? In that case I'd actually like to see (for example) a fork of oyacc using what is figured out in https://github.com/allyourcodebase/yacc to "just" use the build script even in the higher level project.

[flohofwoe]

> so then my glib question: what is the purpose of this project?

The whole point is to massively simplify integrating those libraries into Zig projects by explicitly not having to deal with external build systems or separate C/C++ compiler toolchains.

> Is the grpc makefile no bueno?

Does it work out-of-the-box on Windows? That's usually the first question when encountering a Makefile (and just looking at the first lines of the Makefile, it doesn't, instead it needs to run inside mings: https://github.com/grpc/grpc/blob/a63b3a4d949a7057a0e5443e7a...).

With Zig you usually only need the Zig toolchain, which runs just fine in a regular Windows cmd.exe.

[gravypod]

> With Zig you usually only need the Zig toolchain, which runs just fine in a regular Windows cmd.exe.

It's amazing how complicated we made things with bad software engineering and how good we can make things with good software engineering.

[peesem]

i do like zig and its build system, but i agree that i see little point to the allyourcodebase repositories. you can probably learn about what you _can_ do with the build system through them, but i don't think they're best practice. they just redefine the build graph either statically (harder to update) or through path generation with python or something of the sort (what's the point, it's not contained in the zig build system anymore). i also remember some repositories getting quite outdated, though it seems there's been more effort to keep them updated these days.

the one thing i will blame zig for here is the refusal to make some system to just include all of the files in a directory (hence allyourcodebase's python scripts). it makes sense with zig's import & module system but i think it would probably be a big blocker for some projects that they'd have to manually list out every single C file in their source.

you can currently use the filesystem apis to manually walk through files in your build script, though this is discouraged and will go away with upcoming change of isolating the build script

[forrestthewoods]

> classic problem we have in Bazel land

Can you tell me more about this? I’ve never used Bazel. I have used Buck extensively. But have never used either in an open source context.

[rtpg]

there's a wonderful blog post about this that I wish I could find and can't. I feel like it was a github gist.

The gist of it is something like:

- Bazel community hits a problem with something like how npm behaves around paths

- Bazel's solution is to create a patching system around paths to resolve them

- rinse and repeat for every piece of tooling us "normies" are using

The end result is that instead of Bazel's efforts showing up in the base tooling, they build up a bunch of their own tooling and patches, and the underlying tools don't get really much if any benefit. Moving to Bazel still is a PITA, and there's a lack of improving onramps

In an alternate universe when people in Bazel land hit issues they would show up with patches and recommendations _to the underlying tools_ to get things merged in so that the workflows can be better supported across the board.

I don't think anyone working on Bazel is against upstreaming, but I think they discount the value of it because, hey, _they_ can get patches and hacks working for their flow

[forrestthewoods]

Ah interesting, thanks.

My intuition is that npm, cargo, zig build etc are all “wrong”. And that Bazel/Buck are architecturally correct. Build systems should be polyglot by default! All these build systems and package managers that are per language are wrong.

But unfortunately Bazel and Buck have a decade plus of tech debt and baggage from their corporate overlords. Internal buck is actually mostly nice. I don’t know why anyone ever use it externally.

[rkangel]

> My intuition is that npm, cargo, zig build etc are all “wrong”. And that Bazel/Buck are architecturally correct.

Arguably yes. The fundamental issue is that Bazel etc. are "hermetic" build systems - every build step they run is in a sandbox with only the inputs (source files and tools) that you have explicitly specified - nothing implicit everything explicit. And relies on the output you get from those inputs being the same every time.

This gives a wonderful property of knowing exactly which steps need performing and being able to cache everything - your whole build DAG is a merkle tree.

The downside is that many build steps do not fit into that mould - they make arbitrary network calls, or want to be able to access corners of your filesystem, or produce slightly different outputs each time due to multithreading etc. So you need to work around this in some way to make the larger system work.

(FYI, this is exactly the same as the Nix and Guix build systems except that for them the granularity of a step is "build one package" rather than "build one C file")

[rtpg]

It's not about the package managers not being polyglot. It's about, for example, witnessing that `pip install` installs binaries with absolute paths and then writing a patch _for pip_ that Bazel uses, instead of figuring out how to change upstream pip to make that a configuration bit that Bazel uses.

Bazel uses npm/cargo/pip in most people's usage of these tools! People still use these packages managers, with random patches and tweaks (because the overall ecosystem assumes you're using them). But Bazel often includes random fixups in their own tools.

For example [0] is some patches Bazel does to node to get it to play nicely witH Bazel. In an (IMO) better world Bazel people figure out what they need, and figure out what they can get upstreamed into node to get things working.

Instead we have patches that (if you jump through the history) have been around for 6+ years

[0]: https://github.com/aspect-build/rules_js/tree/main/js/privat...

[dzbarsky]

This comment gives off the impression that bazel just wraps cargo/pip/npm invocations, which is incorrect (at least in the commonly used scenarios)

First of all, bazel does not handle any of these languages/ecosystems itself. Such logic is delegated to language-specific rulesets, of which there are multiple implementations with different tradeoffs.

For python - https://github.com/aspect-build/rules_py parses a UV lockfile and does not use either UV or pip at build time.

For rust - https://github.com/hermeticbuild/rules_rs parses the cargo lockfiles but does not invoke cargo for compilation.

For js, https://github.com/aspect-build/rules_js parses the pnpm lockfile but does not invoke npm or pnpm at build time in the commonly used configurations.

While it's true that bazel allows to patch all dependencies on the fly, in my experience many Bazel users do try to contribute back, because managing stacks of hundreds of patches across all your dependencies isn't particularly fun.

[rtpg]

sorry, you're right and I didn't express my idea well

> For python - https://github.com/aspect-build/rules_py parses a UV lockfile and does not use either UV or pip at build time.

rules_python does for example call into piptools to do installation

https://github.com/bazel-contrib/rules_python/blob/main/pyth...

To be honest this stuff feels like it's gotten soooo much better in the years since I've used Bazel. (one can easily argue that it's been thanks to language ecosystems getting their things better) compared to when I've last had to use Bazel back in 2021-2022 (I had initially set up Bazel in ... 2018 for an existing Python project). So this might be a bit like relitigating Python 3.0. The lessons are learned perhaps!

If I want to be very cynical... I think there is a universe where uv could have existed 5 years earlier if Google had decided "we're going to extract our Bazel learnings to get Python packaging to be better".

You might say "well they have blaze they don't need this" and that's kind of the point. In the world of setup.py you still need some language-specific infrastructure. Google and friends could have pushed things along in interesting ways, IMO!

But given their general sort of "we just vendor everything in" attitude they don't need to do that. So language ecosystems don't get the right kind of pushes and it takes us a decade for someone in the Python community to write "lockfiles that work + a package installer that works". Feels like a missed opportunity, mainly.

[forrestthewoods]

> Bazel uses npm/cargo/pip in most people's usage of these tools!

Oh interesting. Buck totally replaces cargo / pip. I think the JS story is a little messier. Not sure as I try my best to not touch JS.

[dzbarsky]

See my comment above - the common language rulesets work in similar ways as Buck(2), AIUI. (Except bazel has features to consume external dependencies without vendoring, as opposed to Reindeer approach for example). Another difference is that since Bazel has much more adoption across the OSS world, there are more viable choices in language implementation rulesets, as opposed to Buck's prelude.

[imtringued]

The problem has less to do with the fact that they are language specific build systems and more to do with the fact that build systems in general have refused to standardize.

If every build system came with sandboxing and programmable APIs that are all mostly the same, someone could have built a wrapper on top that exposes a standardized interface.

[LoganDark]

When I build software to use on my personal machine, I usually swap the build system out for tup. Maintainers never see this, but tup is just better for me. (Exception: Rust projects that use cargo, and JS projects that use bundling)