[probably_wrong]

I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues.

First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "most of them") you may very well wonder why staying here alone when you could be just as unemployed near your family.

Second: I won't say that Germany is xenophobic (not even all AfD voters) but I will say it's unfriendly. Work example: I've worked in multiple places in German without language issues, and yet many jobs automatically disqualify me because they ask for "minimum C2", a rank I don't have and one that many native Germans wouldn't achieve either. Add less chances to make a social circle, inflexibility, not great weather, and a government that's constantly calling you lazy and entitled, and that's how you get depressed.

The sad part is, Germany has all the pieces to be a great place to live that, for some reason, has decided to dismantle them all one by one.

[sva_]

> First, things are bad

As a German, it sounds like you integrated well.

[inigyou]

What's that supposed to mean?

[Tarsul]

assimilation of German pessimistic tendencies.

[polotics]

There are sclerotic forces at work in Germany.

I sometimes wonder if the digestion of East-Germany hasn't somehow hurt a post-war rejuvenated Western&Southern German spirit.

Maybe it's just post-traumatic-stress from the Russian occupation still lingering: 1989 is not that far, generations-wise.

There is hope still... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw

[Schlagbohrer]

East Germany was completely looted by West German corporations. There were east german workers who's final job was packing up all the machinery and inventory in their plant to ship to the west german company that had bought it all for €1, for example. Basically west germany did to the former east what private equity in the united states does to many companies- tear it down for scrap and sell it off. Then years later people blame the Ossies for just being backwards.

If you want more information about this I highly recommend Katja Hoyer's book, "Beyond the Wall" about life in the east and the problems of reunifcation.

[ahf8Aithaex7Nai]

Absolutely right: they took advantage of us and exploited us, and ever since then they’ve been calling us lazy. Many people in East Germany and West Germany don’t even realize this, but what actually happened during reunification closely resembles the way a colonial power treats a colonized territory: extraction of value, exploitation of cheap labor, and systematic discrimination against the local population. For many people from the generation before mine, there’s the typical term “Wendeverlierer” (those who lost out in the reunification). I would classify my father and other members of my family into this group. Even in my generation, it’s still the case that West Germans from comparable social classes have disproportionately more inherited wealth and prosperity. We East Germans, on the other hand, have longer de facto working hours and lower salaries. I don't blame every single West German for this, but collectively, I do hold Germany largely responsible for the fact that East Germany and East Germans remain economically disadvantaged to this day.

The saddest part is that there are even many East Germans who don't see this at all, but instead attribute the economic stagnation of many regions in eastern Germany to the mindset of the people living there.

[throwawaypath]

>First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on.

Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

[bulbar]

That perspective is weird as foreign health care workers right now are the only thing that keep the health care sector from collapsing.

[wrqvrwvq]

An insane assumption when there are millions of immigrants in every european country lining up for every type of health care service and not contributing a cent back into it

[bulbar]

I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration.

People who migrate need to deposit thousands of Euros, at least when they come for training in health care sector (nurse or doctor). You can also come if you have an offer from a German company or a very good outlook to get one. In any case, you are not allowed to stay if you don't work for a longer period of time.

I can't believe how many don't know about this even here.

It's basically relatively easy to stay here as a refugee, but not as easy to stay here as a skilled worker.

[Gareth321]

> I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration.

I'm surprised I need to explain this, but refugees are also migrants. They're using one of many visa pathways.

This conversation highlights the issue with this discussion: many intersecting issues. As you point out: Europe has made it incredibly easy for refugees to immigrate (most of whom, depending on the country of origin, do not ever enter the workforce); and made it incredibly difficult for working immigrants. This is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. Unfortunately negativity towards the high crime and high unemployment immigrant populations gets conflated with working immigrants. Since politicians do not dare touch the sacred ECHR cow, they enact rules to make it harder for law-abiding immigrants.

[bulbar]

I agree and apparently we don't even have good terms that show the difference of the two groups.

[stratocumulus0]

In most cases it's not possible for a refugee who's already in Germany to gain a regular residence permit without going back to their country of origin and starting the entire immigration process from scratch. All this talk about refugees not wanting to integrate, and no one mentioning that there is no point for them to integrate whatsoever, if they are going to be kicked out eventually regardless of their merit.

[tsss]

You get German citizenship almost automatically after 5 years in the country just by having a job and a basic understanding of the language. Even without speaking the language you can get citizenship simply by going to school here for 4 years.

> no one mentioning that there is no point for them to integrate whatsoever

There is a point: They are GUESTS here and when you are a guest in someone's house, you better act respectfully.

[hunterpayne]

I don't think that is really true. I think what's true is that people like private nursing care but its really expensive. Its less expensive if you have a large influx of cheap labor.

[bulbar]

The shortage of workers in the health care sector is well established, just look at some numbers. As my wife works in health care sector, I also know that from own experience. Here colleagues and friends are mostly from within EU but also outside EU. A friend of mine from Syria just completed her training to become a neurologist. Another just finished training to become a nurse. She nearly had to move out of the country because she was on a "training visa" but finished it an wanted to start working. They wanted her to move out of Germany to apply for a work visa.

It's pure insanity. Meanwhile, many people think regular migration and coming as refugee is basically the same thing and that we don't need skilled worker to begin with. Maybe we deserve to become insignificant, but I would rather from some distance.

Of all places I never imagined finding so many AfD talking points here on HN. Trying to migrate to another country right now, because I see a grim future coming with the direction the society is going. Reading here strongly confirms my reasoning for that.

[snovymgodym]

Yeah, those are different people than the ones who arrived en masse during the "refugees welcome" phase.

The healthcare workers are overwhelmingly people who migrated legally through the proper channels.

[frollogaston]

Funny thing is in the US, Mid East background (especially Iranian) is stereotyped as being doctors and lawyers, sometimes engineers. I know at least they disproportionately go into medicine.

[_zoltan_]

that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD.

and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switzerland votes.

And I'm writing this as an immigrant myself... It's sad.

[bulbar]

You talking about refugees or migration? That's two totally different things. Germany is in desperate need of migration and yes, the people that come are skilled workers.

Refugees is a completely different topic.

[_zoltan_]

Willkommenkultur should have given it away that I am talking about refugees. however, in normal societal culture, these cannot be separated, I promise you. refugees set the tone for how migrants are viewed by the general public.

[snovymgodym]

I'm going to assume that you're not being intentionally obtuse, so I'll clarify what people are saying.

Germany didn't and still does not have meaningful immigration enforcement. For fairly understandable reasons, German asylum law is quite permissive. You get benefits from the government (read, from the German taxpayer) as soon as you submit an asylum claim even if it ultimately gets denied. Processing an asylum claim takes a long time, and there are many ways to delay it. It is very hard to get deported by force from Germany.

The net effect of this was that a huge number of young men who were essentially economic migrants came to Germany in the last 15 years on dubious asylum claims by misrepresenting their age, their national origin, the situations in their home country, and so on. A lot of these people are perpetually unemployed, not only due to the complicated nature of getting work permission as an asylum seeker, but also because they lack the language and professional skills to work the in-demand jobs in Germany, and because, well they continue to get government benefits.

This is on top of the fact that the German social support system is already strained from age demographics, and that large groups of young men who come from misogynistic/chauvinistic societies and are perpetually unemployed behave rather predictably.

In addition, by allowing this abuse of the system, the skilled legal migrants also suffer as they are heavily taxed to subsidize non-working "asylum seekers" and growing anti-migration/anti-foreign sentiment gets directed to them as well.

So in conclusion, refugees and migration are not "totally different things". In fact, in the case of Germany they are two deeply intwined topics that cannot just be dealt with in isolation.

[bulbar]

It's two different topics in the sense that the process for skilled workers must be simplified so that they can come and stay easier. We also need those people as our society won't be sustainable otherwise.

The challenges with Asylum seekers are very different as you have pointed out.

[account42]

The "refugees" are migrants. Low-skilled migrants who would not make it through to normal immigration process but still migrants. They are not coming here for safety but to build a better life for themselves - and their families who are often initially left back home.

[BeetleB]

> and for the downvoters: these are facts.

One would expect you would follow that sentence with some facts...

[_zoltan_]

I did. you're welcome to use your favourite search engine.

[ifwinterco]

The backlash is baked in now I think, people hoping it will just go away are delusional.

But if European elites (including UK) are smart they should be able to avoid the worst outcomes, most people don't really want trouble.

Issue is, there's no sign of smartness so far

[throwaway27448]

> Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

I would assume this would take a generation. Y'all don't understand how lucky you have it, tbh.

[throwawaypath]

Yes, in a generation there will be more Peace Trucks and ISIS 2.0. So lucky!

[throwawaypath]

Just a few days after making this comment the exact scenario occurred. Trucks of Peace operated by a MENA doctor/lawyer/engineer culturally enriched Germany!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Berlin_Pride_van_attack

[froh]

there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually...

I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent.

if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement.

in contrast you can study in german language at a German university with C1 proficiency already.

[mmarq]

C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker.

A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.

[djaro]

If a native speaker didn't pass a C2 exam, it's not because they don't understand the language well enough, it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes.

Any native speaker will still be far beyond C2 when it comes to intuitively understanding a language and using it. No native speaker will ever fail the oral part of a C2 exam, unless they have to talk about a topic they don't know, which would be a case of a lack of knowledge, not a lack of language proficiency.

[mmarq]

> it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes.

Reading and writing are part of language proficiency. If someone struggles to understand complex written texts, then their command of the language isn't as strong as that of a proficient C1/C2 user, even if they are a native speaker.

> they have to talk about a topic they don't know.

When I took my C1 exam, I had to read and discuss a text about polymers used in aircraft wings. The definition of C1 describes someone who can understand complex texts and use the language in academic and professional contexts. Many native speakers are not even close (eg I know a number of people who were born and raised in Italy who don't understand all the moods and tenses, so I have to simplify my language when speaking with them, as I would with a foreigner).

What you have in mind is “sounding like a local” or “not having a foreign accent” or “knowing most of regional idiomatic expression”.

[froh]

yes.

indeed.

C1 is high school.

C2 is academics.

see sibling comment for links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48828753

[froh]

nope.

C1 is high school

C2 is academics.

see sibling comment for links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48828753

[froh]

indeed

C1 is high school level indeed and C2 is academics. this has been studied on native speakers:

me> I'm looking for studies which examine citizens language proficiency in their native tongue in the European language reference framework i.e. b2 C1 C2

Gemini> https://share.google/aimode/bImgIsAl5VfAcuoFl

has links to studies

also here is the "self assessment" on the CEFR home page:

Self-assessment grid - Table 2 (CEFR 3.3) : Common Reference levels - Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) https://share.google/E6POb6UYC53cUkxXg

[torginus]

Germans just love to exclude others based on their 'master race' sentiment - I have had this happen to others in my vicinity, so that's why I know it's not a personal grievance thing.

I had a friend rejected from a job (she was not German but lived in Germany, and spoke the language), as the recruiter told her they are looking only for people from DACH countries becase of some 'data protection laws' that can be enforced there. Since the job was remote, they argued, she could move out of the country at any point in time so she would not be eligible.

(I know this because I had another acquaintance who worked there)

[froh]

that relates to the C2/C1/B2 conversation in which way?

[IshKebab]

Presumably they are excluding non-native Germans using difficult German language requirements?

Tbh I wish my current employer had higher (or any) English language requirements. It makes meetings (especially video calls which is all of them) significantly harder when you have to decode heavily Indian English as well as understand highly complex technical discussions.

[torginus]

I get you, but credentialism is an issue in general - the best AWS expert isn't usually the one with the most certs. Likewise I don't have any sort of advanced English or German cert. I have B2 in both, but my German is a lot worse now, but at my best I had no trouble interacting with my German coworkers or society in general.

[eunos]

> there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus

A subtle hint they want born-and-raised German rather than immigrant.

[Schlagbohrer]

It has been my experience that many jobs which say "Must have C1 German" or something like that just mean "You need to be able to speak with us in German at work" and if you can speak at B2 level, that's perfectly fine. I had B1 level German and got job offers from places with such requirements because I can speak pretty well with my German colleagues who dont know any english, and I can use a mix when speaking about complicated things with my other colleagues.

[atoav]

The issues you see now in Germany are the direct consequence of the Merkel era conservative government and its austerity policy. They really wanted to get the deficit down at all cost. And all cost included any sort of needed maintenance on public infrastructure.

[talon8635]

I have zero knowledge on German politics. But I do wonder, if these same problems are plagues many (most) big cities (and even countries) in the west, including very liberal and high spending governments, how can we safely conclude it’s a conservative problem (or a liberal one)?

[throwaway27448]

How balanced the budget is isn't really a conservative vs liberal problem—that's more of an administration detail than an ideological distinction.

[atoav]

Well in this case it is a documented trail of defering needed maintenance with the argument of needing to safe money.

I did not argue that this is a outcome that can only happen to conservative governments. In fact I am convinced it is a fundamental problem of how politics work: you elect politicians to government for a limited period, so they often try to push off costs for which the ultimate prize will be paid to the next period, in which they may not be in government anymore.

But of course conservative governments tend to be more often part of that dynamic since austerity politics and conservatism often (although, not always) go hand in hand. Often the austerity has a smidgen of corruption as well, where government contracts that then need to be made (urgently! since maintenance was deferred!) often go to the politicians private friends. Free market for thee and not for me.

Another classic is to starve some working government/public institutions budget, only to then point at the mess and explain why this needs to privatized (coincidentally you know exactly the right guy to step in, what a surprise).

I am not saying that it is only conservative polticians that do that, but it tends to be a bit harder to do while e.g. demanding democratic socialist policy and strong public institutions.

[talon8635]

My state of California is crumbling from deferred maintenance in pretty much every realm—old houses, busted roads despite the gentlest weather, public schools with lead pipes, painfully loud rickety trains, public spaces converted into public dumping grounds and squatters quarters, empty reservoirs, power lines that fall and spark large fires many times every year, and on and on and on

[criddell]

While Germany and some other Western countries were going along with the IMF and their austerity policies, Japan just kept printing money. Where would you rather live today? (I've been to Japan (Tokyo) but never Germany, so I have no opinion)

It's going to be interesting to see the long term consequences of the choices different nations made along the way.

[mimischi]

Danke Merkel!

/s

[cineticdaffodil]

Wir schaffen das/s!

[cloudie78]

What has kept you from achieving C2, you’ve been there for 10y+

[probably_wrong]

It may not sound like a satisfying answer, but: because I'm not here to earn a language certificate but rather to live and work, my German is more than fine, and I think my time could be better employed doing something else.

I've worked in German institutions for a long time now, I've published in German, I have no problems understanding people and, leaving my accent aside, people can understand me. I read books in German and understand German movies. My German is fine.

I could take time away from learning what's new in tech and science (a lot, apparently) to get a C2 but, and I may be wrong here, I don't think someone asking for "minimum C2" (which, again, disqualifies even native Germans) is engaging with the process in good faith.

I have no objections to learning the language, which is why I've done it. What I do object to is chasing a pointless certificate when I could be doing the thing I was brought here to do.

[SepiaSapient]

As a inverse example: a (German) family member has lived fully immersed for 20+ years in my Spanish speaking country.

I doubt he could pass a C2 level test, there's simply a hard limit in language learning for most people without academic instruction. It's also pointless, he's had a long career in a professional field where clear communication is mission critical. Furthermore even if another foreigner with a shiny Spanish C2 certificate appeared they would fare worse, because they wouldn't know the local social minutia.

Aside from jobs in the Literature department or something, a C2 requirement is a "foreigners need not apply" sign.

[skylurk]

Just ask Mark Twain ;)

https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html

[helge9210]

C1 can be achieved (I did it on 360 hours). C2 is academic level of language proficiency -- you have to either deliberately study for the difficult exam or get an university degree in German. Most of the Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test.

When a company sets C2 as a requirement, it can be interpreted as "must have a degree from German University".

[numeri]

> Most Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test

That's not true, but it is a commonly shared myth. I've taken and passed C2 with the highest mark in every category (I moved here when I was a young teen, wanted to know if I would pass it after hearing years of people saying things like you're saying).

Most Germans would easily pass C2, although I think they'd have to be well-read/possibly university educated to get high scores (mostly need to be able to read quickly, give a semi-structured presentation and write a persuasive essay).

For what it's worth, I could run linguistic laps around all the other test takers there that day, and I assume at least some of them passed.

[alex0015]

That's a really interesting experience. Lots of people in language learning communities have this argument back and forth for years. Have you ever written a longer piece about your education, preparation for the exam, abilities of other test takers?

For reference I scored ~C1 in German years ago (testdaf 4/4/5/4) and at that level there's no question at all about the vast gulf between me and an educated native speaker.

[numeri]

I've not written up anything, no. I think I'd have a hard time doing so without just feeling like I'm bragging about myself, which I don't like.

There's still a definite gap between me and native speakers, that shows itself primarily in the effort required, but I'm definitely near native (pass as German in all social settings, although an hour long conversation will usually tease it out due to my unfamiliar first name or small-talk topics, rarely but occasionally due to mistakes).

I prepared by doing two practice exams and about 5 filmed and timed practice presentations, and that was over preparing for me. Experiences vary, and I do think I'm a bit towards the outlier side, but it's left me convinced that the whole "native speakers might not pass C2" thing is overblown.

[helge9210]

Most Germans are not well-read/university educated.

[jgilias]

I have a degree from a German University and don’t have C2. That requirement can be interpreted as “must not be an immigrant”

[persedes]

Yeah, not to make light of the tests, but those degrees boil down to paying Goethe Institut to take their classes that prep you for the test.

[jadtz]

Hi, I am interested in language learning, and your first sentence caught my attention. I am currently learning german, do you have a blog post on your journey of learning a language in 360 hours? around 45 days if 8 hours per day. How were you able to achieve so much with so little time?

[helge9210]

Cut the pace to 1 hour a week, than some bursts of two to four months of up to 4 hours a day two to three days a week -- that would be close to how I did it. 45 days 8 hours per day is beyond my brain ability to adapt.

[DStiego]

This is one of the most accurate descriptions I’ve seen here. Germany is a country with immense potential. All one can say is “what a shame”.