[froh]

there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually...

I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent.

if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement.

in contrast you can study in german language at a German university with C1 proficiency already.

[mmarq]

C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker.

A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.

[djaro]

If a native speaker didn't pass a C2 exam, it's not because they don't understand the language well enough, it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes.

Any native speaker will still be far beyond C2 when it comes to intuitively understanding a language and using it. No native speaker will ever fail the oral part of a C2 exam, unless they have to talk about a topic they don't know, which would be a case of a lack of knowledge, not a lack of language proficiency.

[mmarq]

> it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes.

Reading and writing are part of language proficiency. If someone struggles to understand complex written texts, then their command of the language isn't as strong as that of a proficient C1/C2 user, even if they are a native speaker.

> they have to talk about a topic they don't know.

When I took my C1 exam, I had to read and discuss a text about polymers used in aircraft wings. The definition of C1 describes someone who can understand complex texts and use the language in academic and professional contexts. Many native speakers are not even close (eg I know a number of people who were born and raised in Italy who don't understand all the moods and tenses, so I have to simplify my language when speaking with them, as I would with a foreigner).

What you have in mind is “sounding like a local” or “not having a foreign accent” or “knowing most of regional idiomatic expression”.

[froh]

yes.

indeed.

C1 is high school.

C2 is academics.

see sibling comment for links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48828753

[froh]

nope.

C1 is high school

C2 is academics.

see sibling comment for links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48828753

[froh]

indeed

C1 is high school level indeed and C2 is academics. this has been studied on native speakers:

me> I'm looking for studies which examine citizens language proficiency in their native tongue in the European language reference framework i.e. b2 C1 C2

Gemini> https://share.google/aimode/bImgIsAl5VfAcuoFl

has links to studies

also here is the "self assessment" on the CEFR home page:

Self-assessment grid - Table 2 (CEFR 3.3) : Common Reference levels - Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) https://share.google/E6POb6UYC53cUkxXg

[torginus]

Germans just love to exclude others based on their 'master race' sentiment - I have had this happen to others in my vicinity, so that's why I know it's not a personal grievance thing.

I had a friend rejected from a job (she was not German but lived in Germany, and spoke the language), as the recruiter told her they are looking only for people from DACH countries becase of some 'data protection laws' that can be enforced there. Since the job was remote, they argued, she could move out of the country at any point in time so she would not be eligible.

(I know this because I had another acquaintance who worked there)

[froh]

that relates to the C2/C1/B2 conversation in which way?

[IshKebab]

Presumably they are excluding non-native Germans using difficult German language requirements?

Tbh I wish my current employer had higher (or any) English language requirements. It makes meetings (especially video calls which is all of them) significantly harder when you have to decode heavily Indian English as well as understand highly complex technical discussions.

[torginus]

I get you, but credentialism is an issue in general - the best AWS expert isn't usually the one with the most certs. Likewise I don't have any sort of advanced English or German cert. I have B2 in both, but my German is a lot worse now, but at my best I had no trouble interacting with my German coworkers or society in general.

[eunos]

> there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus

A subtle hint they want born-and-raised German rather than immigrant.