[throwawaypath]

>First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on.

Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

[bulbar]

That perspective is weird as foreign health care workers right now are the only thing that keep the health care sector from collapsing.

[wrqvrwvq]

An insane assumption when there are millions of immigrants in every european country lining up for every type of health care service and not contributing a cent back into it

[bulbar]

I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration.

People who migrate need to deposit thousands of Euros, at least when they come for training in health care sector (nurse or doctor). You can also come if you have an offer from a German company or a very good outlook to get one. In any case, you are not allowed to stay if you don't work for a longer period of time.

I can't believe how many don't know about this even here.

It's basically relatively easy to stay here as a refugee, but not as easy to stay here as a skilled worker.

[Gareth321]

> I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration.

I'm surprised I need to explain this, but refugees are also migrants. They're using one of many visa pathways.

This conversation highlights the issue with this discussion: many intersecting issues. As you point out: Europe has made it incredibly easy for refugees to immigrate (most of whom, depending on the country of origin, do not ever enter the workforce); and made it incredibly difficult for working immigrants. This is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. Unfortunately negativity towards the high crime and high unemployment immigrant populations gets conflated with working immigrants. Since politicians do not dare touch the sacred ECHR cow, they enact rules to make it harder for law-abiding immigrants.

[bulbar]

I agree and apparently we don't even have good terms that show the difference of the two groups.

[stratocumulus0]

In most cases it's not possible for a refugee who's already in Germany to gain a regular residence permit without going back to their country of origin and starting the entire immigration process from scratch. All this talk about refugees not wanting to integrate, and no one mentioning that there is no point for them to integrate whatsoever, if they are going to be kicked out eventually regardless of their merit.

[tsss]

You get German citizenship almost automatically after 5 years in the country just by having a job and a basic understanding of the language. Even without speaking the language you can get citizenship simply by going to school here for 4 years.

> no one mentioning that there is no point for them to integrate whatsoever

There is a point: They are GUESTS here and when you are a guest in someone's house, you better act respectfully.

[hunterpayne]

I don't think that is really true. I think what's true is that people like private nursing care but its really expensive. Its less expensive if you have a large influx of cheap labor.

[bulbar]

The shortage of workers in the health care sector is well established, just look at some numbers. As my wife works in health care sector, I also know that from own experience. Here colleagues and friends are mostly from within EU but also outside EU. A friend of mine from Syria just completed her training to become a neurologist. Another just finished training to become a nurse. She nearly had to move out of the country because she was on a "training visa" but finished it an wanted to start working. They wanted her to move out of Germany to apply for a work visa.

It's pure insanity. Meanwhile, many people think regular migration and coming as refugee is basically the same thing and that we don't need skilled worker to begin with. Maybe we deserve to become insignificant, but I would rather from some distance.

Of all places I never imagined finding so many AfD talking points here on HN. Trying to migrate to another country right now, because I see a grim future coming with the direction the society is going. Reading here strongly confirms my reasoning for that.

[snovymgodym]

Yeah, those are different people than the ones who arrived en masse during the "refugees welcome" phase.

The healthcare workers are overwhelmingly people who migrated legally through the proper channels.

[frollogaston]

Funny thing is in the US, Mid East background (especially Iranian) is stereotyped as being doctors and lawyers, sometimes engineers. I know at least they disproportionately go into medicine.

[_zoltan_]

that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD.

and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switzerland votes.

And I'm writing this as an immigrant myself... It's sad.

[bulbar]

You talking about refugees or migration? That's two totally different things. Germany is in desperate need of migration and yes, the people that come are skilled workers.

Refugees is a completely different topic.

[_zoltan_]

Willkommenkultur should have given it away that I am talking about refugees. however, in normal societal culture, these cannot be separated, I promise you. refugees set the tone for how migrants are viewed by the general public.

[snovymgodym]

I'm going to assume that you're not being intentionally obtuse, so I'll clarify what people are saying.

Germany didn't and still does not have meaningful immigration enforcement. For fairly understandable reasons, German asylum law is quite permissive. You get benefits from the government (read, from the German taxpayer) as soon as you submit an asylum claim even if it ultimately gets denied. Processing an asylum claim takes a long time, and there are many ways to delay it. It is very hard to get deported by force from Germany.

The net effect of this was that a huge number of young men who were essentially economic migrants came to Germany in the last 15 years on dubious asylum claims by misrepresenting their age, their national origin, the situations in their home country, and so on. A lot of these people are perpetually unemployed, not only due to the complicated nature of getting work permission as an asylum seeker, but also because they lack the language and professional skills to work the in-demand jobs in Germany, and because, well they continue to get government benefits.

This is on top of the fact that the German social support system is already strained from age demographics, and that large groups of young men who come from misogynistic/chauvinistic societies and are perpetually unemployed behave rather predictably.

In addition, by allowing this abuse of the system, the skilled legal migrants also suffer as they are heavily taxed to subsidize non-working "asylum seekers" and growing anti-migration/anti-foreign sentiment gets directed to them as well.

So in conclusion, refugees and migration are not "totally different things". In fact, in the case of Germany they are two deeply intwined topics that cannot just be dealt with in isolation.

[bulbar]

It's two different topics in the sense that the process for skilled workers must be simplified so that they can come and stay easier. We also need those people as our society won't be sustainable otherwise.

The challenges with Asylum seekers are very different as you have pointed out.

[account42]

The "refugees" are migrants. Low-skilled migrants who would not make it through to normal immigration process but still migrants. They are not coming here for safety but to build a better life for themselves - and their families who are often initially left back home.

[BeetleB]

> and for the downvoters: these are facts.

One would expect you would follow that sentence with some facts...

[_zoltan_]

I did. you're welcome to use your favourite search engine.

[ifwinterco]

The backlash is baked in now I think, people hoping it will just go away are delusional.

But if European elites (including UK) are smart they should be able to avoid the worst outcomes, most people don't really want trouble.

Issue is, there's no sign of smartness so far

[throwaway27448]

> Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

I would assume this would take a generation. Y'all don't understand how lucky you have it, tbh.

[throwawaypath]

Yes, in a generation there will be more Peace Trucks and ISIS 2.0. So lucky!

[throwawaypath]

Just a few days after making this comment the exact scenario occurred. Trucks of Peace operated by a MENA doctor/lawyer/engineer culturally enriched Germany!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Berlin_Pride_van_attack