[msisk6]

I recently moved to the St. Louis area for a software job at Boeing. I'm actually in a nice quiet neighborhood in St. Charles right under the flight path for planes landing at Lambert Field.

The fireworks last night were insane. All around me folks were setting off commercial grade fireworks bursting hundreds of feet in the air. The house was shaking, my dogs were freaking out, one of them had a seizure. The air was filled with smoke and smelled of gun powder. It was one of the craziest things I've ever experienced.

Next year I'll definitely be planning an out-of-town vacation for the 4th to some location with firework restrictions.

I don't know what the planes were doing; I didn't hear or see any landing with all the smoke and noise.

[jandrewrogers]

40-50 years ago, fireworks were largely unregulated across the US and were a major part of the 4th of July cultural experience. Dangerous, slightly reckless, and incredibly fun. I have fond memories of this as a child. It is a big part of American culture, like turkey on Thanksgiving.

Every country has rules that exist but which are culturally unenforceable. Today, fireworks are outlawed in much of the US because safety. Americans refuse to comply across such a broad cross-section of people that it is effectively unenforceable. The cultural contradiction is too strong, people won’t give up their traditions for mere safety reasons. Even the nominal enforcers don’t believe in it. No one is motivated to actually enforce it.

This may be unsatisfying for many people but the impossibility of enforcing fireworks bans in the US captures an important component of the American zeitgeist. It is annoying for me sometimes but I recognize that this reflects an aspect of American culture that you can’t just erase.

[NelsonMinar]

I realize as a Californian we may not count as "American" in this particular zeitgeist stereotype. But FWIW we have a firework ban in Nevada County that is widely respected. There are very few violations and the law is actively enforced.

The difference is we are in a no-joke dangerous fire situation and everyone recognizes it. Most people know better than to set off incendiary explosives in a forest. Anyone who shot off illegal fireworks would immediately be shamed and censured by their neighbors. I guess it's a form of commune-ism.

[davemp]

Yeah I think that’s the difference. On the east coast in July, the big safety risk with fireworks is generally to your own person.

[inspector-g]

I too live in Nevada County. While I largely agree with the claim that most people recognize and respect the safety implications, most years I still see (or hear) illegal fireworks. It’s clearly the odd individual doing it and not the majority of people, but the asymmetric risk they impose is a real bummer and I would love to see more/better enforcement of the restrictions on such individuals.

[gilrain]

I grew up in southern CA, in a dry pine forest. I can assure you the children I knew traded and set off fireworks. We were all envious of the families who brought them back from Mexico — they had the best stuff.

I guess rules-followers assumed we were all doing as they did.

[MomsAVoxell]

It’s all fun and games until you burn down a few thousand houses.

[adamredwoods]

Not entirely sure, but this fire aligns with July 4, and has one death:

https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/wildfire/update-numerous-stru...

[trillic]

The biggest forest fire I know of in Southern California this year was caused by a boater using his government mandated safety flares.

If there was not a law regulating the use of these incendiary devices, Santa Rosa may not have burned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Rosa_Island_Fire

[antonyt]

Your own link contradicts the assertion you’re making about the origin of the fire.

[gosub100]

It's funny that CAs own "environmental" laws actually created the tinder box conditions in the forest. So their solution is more laws, of course.

[NelsonMinar]

The premise of this statement is wrong.

[foobarchu]

I'd argue the conclusion is wrong. The premise, that places like CA are currently such tinderboxes as a direct result of preventing natural burning and continuing to develop in areas that need to burn to stay healthy, is extremely well supported.

[boogieknite]

There was a similar cultural shift in the Portland OR area after fireworks caused the massive Eagle Creek fire 9 years ago. This is the first year that it seems like firework activity returned to the pre-fire levels.

250 baby! (/s)

[AstroNutt]

Back around 1982, fireworks were a big no in my neighborhood. My friend across the street had some bottle rockets and he decided to shoot one off in the middle of the street. We didn't have a bottle to put it in to light it, so we wedged it between two bricks. He lit it and a split second before it went off, it tilted to point directly down the street. It fired off blazing down the middle of the road. At the same time a cop car just happened to turn the corner and that damn thing popped on the hood of the cop car. We scattered like ants. My friend that lit it ran inside, I hid in his garage under his moms car and the other two hauled ass home.

Well the cop parked out front and knocked on his door. His dad answered and they spent which felt like an hour (probably 10-15 minutes) talking about what happened. He got in big trouble and grounded. I stayed in the garage until the smoke cleared, then ran home. I didn't see him for at least a week.

Your post reminded me about that incident. They were regulated in Fort Worth Texas 44 years ago. I haven't thought about that day in years! LOL! Thanks for the fun memory.

[ryandrake]

Yea, I think OP is wearing rose-colored glasses. I'm 50 and I don't remember any time in my life when anything bigger than sparklers or tiny firecrackers were legal. To my young eyes, they've always been illegal. The differences now are 1. a more belligerent and careless population and 2. plummeting police enforcement. You can read a lot of comments here from places (mostly CA) where people care to do the right thing and enforcement is actually happening, and lo and behold it's at least helping. Fireworks bans are not any more "culturally unenforceable" than masking during COVID was.

It helps when your local culture is respectful, cooperative, and intelligent enough to understand why we don't light fires when every tree and blade of grass within 200 miles is dry as a bone. It hurts when your local culture is "Fuck everyone else, I'm going to do what I want!"

[blincoln]

Just to add to the anecdotes:

I'm in my late 40s. I grew up on an island in Washington state. Truly commercial-grade fireworks (the kind that professionals would launch for an audience of thousands) were banned by that time, but plenty of fireworks that would be categorized as "commercial-grade" today were sold publicly by multiple vendors every year.

I love fireworks now, but my first memory of them was terrifying. I would have been about 3 to 5. My parents drove our VW bus to a nearby beach to watch the local display. It was total madness. Teenagers threw explosive fireworks onto and underneath our car.

Even a lot of the smaller home-use fireworks back then had hilariously unsafe behaviour. I remember in particular one called something like "Saturn Missile Battery". It was a box that launched a 10x10 grid of 100 whistling, finless plastic rockets (each about 4-5cm x 5-6mm), with each rocket exploding when their propellant ran out. Because they had no stabilization, they would fly in all directions, change direction in flight, etc. When my dad set it off, one of them literally flew right over our heads into the house and exploded in the basement.

My experience is that outside of Seattle, enforcement of fireworks restrictions is pretty lax. For example, if one watches the professional display in Tacoma, one will also see most of Dash Point / Browns Point continuously lit up by fireworks that are unambiguously well outside the legal restrictions.

I agree that a lot of people are reckless, and it's just a matter of time before it causes a high-profile disaster somewhere in the state. But I also agree with the parent comment that it's such an ingrained part of American culture that it would be very hard to change - at least until there's a local disaster that gives people a visceral feeling for the danger.

[ButlerianJihad]

In the mid-90s I had a brief but enjoyable hobby of model rocketry. I guess the #1 obstacle in this pastime is finding a safe launch site.

I had assembled a gorgeous SR-71 Blackbird rocket. I took it to a vast lawn space at Warren College, UCSD, on a quiet weekend, and set it on its maiden voyage. The very lopsided SR-71 immediately went horizontal and landed softly within a swimming pool fence where I had no access.

Some time later, I chose the neighborhood public school yard on a weekend. Nevertheless, the preparations drew a curious crowd of unaccompanied minor children who were younger than me. I told them to be careful and stay clear, and set off the rocket. By the time its parachute deployed, a security guard was driving his car around the field to meet us all at the landing site and give us all a stern warning.

So I abandoned that hobby forever and found less explosive things to tinker with. This week I grabbed two boxes of glow-sticks at the hardware store, and had myself a very glowy 4th.

[sizzle]

Should have launched it off from Geisel library

[chasd00]

That’s what I remember too. Fireworks in the city limits was a no-no. People would do it but you were risking a visit from the local police car. In my neighborhood (OakCliff in Dallas) the police have completely given up, people cruise Jefferson Ave shooting AR15s out of the back of their trucks every Sunday night. July 4th and New Years is completely out of control, it’s going to take a house getting burned down or some other horrible tragedy to change it.

[alsetmusic]

We were setting off fireworks in the street in the middle of the afternoon (cause you'd buy a bunch and gradually deploy in the days leading up to the event). We shot off a rocket, which was one of mine. There were fire trucks shortly after putting out a blaze in an open lot. 1980s, I was <10 years, my older brother and his friend were pretty sure we caused it.

I have no way to know if we started that fire, but regulations exist for a reason and people who live in at-risk areas understand that they could lose their homes.

[mythrwy]

Some friends and I lit a wheat field on fire with Roman candles in Oklahoma when I was 18.

We were having a blast driving down the road shooting candles out of the car window when we topped the crest of a small hill and looked back to see smoke. We drove back and the field was on fire. Fortunately we were able to put it out before it spread any further and the area was so isolated no one saw us.

[Melatonic]

The dumb kid always runs through their own front door

[newsclues]

So regulated kids could get them and use them without supervision eh?

[colmmacc]

You're right but in my experience in Washington state - Park rangers, forest fire marshals, and reservation police will all rigorously enforce the bans in places that are prone to wild fires. The local community won't have much sympathy either. People get how dumb that is. You also see bans enforced in very well off communities that basically have their own police force too. It's fascinating how these micro-cultures all self-regulate.

[nearlyepic]

> this reflects an aspect of American culture that you can’t just erase.

Yeah, and that’s the problem. A whole country full of people belligerent enough to say “fuck you” to anyone who tells them “hey you probably shouldn’t blow your hand off”. What a wonderful place.

[chopin]

But this is none of your business. I live in Germany, where everything is regulated by well meaning people. Going so far to regulate what you ought to say or to watch.

It is hellish. I don't recognize the country any more in which I was born and raised.

[hvb2]

> But this is none of your business. I live in Germany, where everything is regulated by well meaning people.

Assuming you haven't lived in the US I think you're severely underestimating some of the stupidity going on.

So let's say your house has a thatched roof in California where it's bone dry and hot. At that point, the person lighting the fireworks will still say it's none of your business. Even if it's illegal and every year houses burn down as a result.

I don't think you get how much of an 'I don't care about anyone else, because FREEDOM... Murica' mindset exists unless you've lived there

[cucumber3732842]

You wouldn't be allowed to have a thatched roof house in California specifically because of the fire risk.

And if someone wanted to and had a bunch of reasons why it was a good thing you would turn around and be all "but the law" and point to the fire risk.

[hvb2]

Fine, bad example. The point being, people light fireworks in places with extreme fire risk. And don't you dare tell them they cannot. None of your business is the kind response

[rdtsc]

> So let's say your house has a thatched roof in California

You mean like a temporary shelter in woods or maybe it’s a translation issue?

> Assuming you haven't lived in the US I think you're severely underestimating some of the stupidity going on

Speaking of, having a thatched roof in a dry fire prone area would sort of fall in the same category.

[tartuffe78]

A thatched roof?

[woeirua]

Thatched roofs don't exist in CA.

[agensaequivocum]

Oh no we cannot allow plebs to do anything that has the possibility no matter how small of a bad outcome.

[moron4hire]

Let's say you don't live in a California. Say you live near the East coast somewhere, as 2/3rds of the country does.

[alsetmusic]

Sure, but our economy stomps most East Coast states (hello, New York!) and we aren't neighbors of the confederacy.

[sdoering]

> Going so far to regulate what you ought to say or to watch.

Native born German. Calling BS on that crap.

I recommend reading up on "freedom from" vs. "freedom to". Explains quite a lot of differences between the European tradition of ensuring people are "free from" an potentially oppressive state vs. the US tradition of "freedom to".

In each "freedom of speech" index I know, Germany fares better than the US, or Britain, or Australia. Or quite a lot of different countries tbh.

RSF World Press (lower is better): - Germany 14/180 - Britain 18/180 - Australia 33/180 - USA 64/180

Freedom House (higher is better): - Germany 95/100 - Britain 92/100 - Australia 95/100 - USA 84/100

Edit: Typo

[woeirua]

I can't take these indexes seriously when Germany is about to outright ban an entire political party. The US takes the first amendment very seriously.

[danaris]

That "political party" is the modern-day Nazis.

Like, actual Nazis.

If you think Nazis should be given a seat at the political table, especially in Germany, then I don't think I can take you seriously.

[chopin]

Faring better than some other country doesn't mean its good.

Try calling up rt.com via a German phone network.

And calling our chancellor a liar will get your house searched.

[tick_tock_tick]

No one actually believes their BS and I doubt you actually do either.

They use so many bullshit and mental gymnastics to "score" Germany well despite their appalling "free speech" laws. I think it's very fair to say anyone appealing to either of these index's isn't even attempting to argue in good faith.

[Obscurity4340]

How did that work out for Alex Pretti, the protesting nurse that was murdered by the Feds recently?

[inigyou]

In Germany you will get arrested if you publicly talk about Gaza and Israel

[alsetmusic]

To be fair, that'll happen in New York if you protest the internationally-illegal sale of real estate in Palestine taking place in a synagogue. Here's the event, a law was passed protecting religious institutions from protest (but was really for this).

https://theintercept.com/2026/05/11/real-estate-expo-israel-...

[xg15]

German here. The law as written actually permits most of the speech: As long as you avoid a number of banned phrases and don't voice explicit support for groups classified as terrorist organizations, your speech is protected - in theory.

In practice, wondrous things may start to happen already long before you reach that threshold, such as police forgetting their own laws, your venue, backup venue and second backup venue suddenly all deciding they cannot host you, politicians trying to fire you - or you suddenly realizing that you're unable to access any kind of bank account or credit card because the EU put you on a sanctions list (behind closed doors, without telling you, with no option to appeal).

But none of that has to do with overregulation - on the contrary, those measures are often in violation of the law and courts have frequently decided in favor of pro-palestinian activists and axed them.

[Obscurity4340]

Can you cite that please? Theres more going on with a lot pf the Gaza/Israel stuff (that im not unsympathetic to) that can blur the lines somewhat

[cryo32]

Having had that exact discussion with someone in Alexanderplatz right in front of the police building, nope.

[ks1723]

This is just BS. I had and saw many public discussion also on German Marktätze on this topic, some quite heated. Nobody was arrested or removed from their job or otherwise sanctioned. But of course people were disagreeing. The right to free speech is not the right to freedom from contradiction!

[nearlyepic]

> But this is none of your business.

The culture described extends far into things that are my business, like being able to walk around without being shot.

[chopin]

I was referring to"hey you probably shouldn’t blow your hand off”. I am not against regulations per se, I am German after all.

But a sane discussion should be had how far this should go. Regulating things which are dangerous to the person taking a risk knowingly is over the top in my book.

[MomsAVoxell]

Best fireworks show I’ve ever seen in my life was in the middle of the German ruhrgebiet, on a small hill overlooking a shallow valley full of villages, each one setting off a seemingly-infinite round of colour and sound for the hour or so, New Year’s Eve, early 2000’s…

It was a panoramic display of unregulation.

[throwaway91827]

Have you experienced Silvesterabend (New Year's Eve) in a major German city? It feels like a warzone. In the context of fireworks specifically, this image of Germany as an over-regulated nanny state feels particularly at odds with my experience of Germany.

[rbanffy]

I am sure they had all their permits and contingencies required perfectly done and everything was executed in perfect compliance.

[tpm]

I don't know when you were born but I'm pretty sure Germany was regulation capital of the world already back then and this is just your nostalgia bias speaking (also I agree with you Germany is currently way way overregulated but also outsiders have no way to really understand the degree of overregulation).

But also the US pretty much care too much when you for example try to blow your head off with drugs instead of a gun or explosives so the grass is not that green on the other side either.

[warumdarum]

The regulation from Europe is worse. They literally use satellite pictures to check and fine farmers..

[tpm]

No the regulation "from Europe" whatever that means is not worse, that's just the usual dumb anti-EU propaganda. If by that you perhaps mean checking EU agro subsidies against the actual size and use of declared fields, then that is not regulation, it's just checking the subsidies are not defrauded, which is a huge issue. Every farmer is free not to ask for the subsidies. But for most of the EU regs, the member country can choose how to implement them. Usually countries manage to not overburden their people with that. The German problem is homegrown.

[mitthrowaway2]

Fine farmers for what? Without context I have no idea whether this is a reasonable use of satellite pictures or not.

[cryo32]

Depends which side of the wall you were born on…

[chopin]

Apparently, West...

Edit: before 1989.

[LadyCailin]

If you are in the same insurance pool as me (state funded or otherwise) it is at least some of my business, yes?

[helterskelter]

I'm fine with idiots blowing their own hands off, I just worry about wildfires.

[igleria]

that is until you can't have a hospital bed due to those idiots.

[_heimdall]

Is that the line for regulations you're okay with holding on to? If so you better start regulating how many beds each hospital has as well, if bed demand is the bar you must control bed supply.

[master-lincoln]

of course in Germany hospital bed supplies are regulated by the local states via LKHG law

[dessimus]

We couldn't get people to wear masks to reduce the spread and help keep beds open for all the other typical needs, why would they let harm from fireworks impede them?

[account42]

That has more to do with hospitals hyper-optimizing for profit. And a regular demand actually improves the situation here.

[fweimer]

It's still bad for emergency services if everyone does it on the same day.

[rbanffy]

They’ll just run triage and tend to people who are easier to fix first and leave the more suicidal ones for later.

[kypro]

It's funny because I read the parent comment and thought that was actually kinda cool.

Lots of things we do are really stupid from a purely productivity, health or safety perspective.

American's were probably wrong to oppose alcohol prohibition. They probably should ban motorbikes. Fireworks should be largely banned to members of the public. Pizza should be illegal. Etc..

Part of what makes a country a place you'd want to live is the fact they don't create an excess of rules and regulations to optimise for what's best on paper, but allow people to do stupid things and allow them to live the life they want to live and take the risks they want to take where risks are not too excessive.

Commercial fireworks are dangerous, but not that dangerous. It's inadvisable that someone would use them without proper safety training, and it probably makes sense to have some rules around selling them to try to limit use, but in reality this just isn't a big problem.

Obviously people who live on flight paths should be more careful.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Rules come from lawsuits.

When you can get sued, safety fences get put up, quite quickly.

America has very aggressive lawyers. We live in a country, where being stupid, can be financially rewarding.

[ryandrake]

The threat of getting sued only motivates people with something to lose. If we let lawsuits largely drive what the rules are, how do you govern people who are so poor they are "judgement-proof."

[ChrisMarshallNY]

True, but this is how it actually works, in the US.

Lots of stuff is not anywhere close to ideal, but it is what it is.

people refusing to understand that, doesn't help. Change usually comes from people who first, understand and accept, then they know what to do, to actually make change, as opposed to tilting at windmills.

[jimmaswell]

Beats the pants off "please sir, may I have some more" as seen in many other places

[nearlyepic]

Nah, I’d rather beg for money than be run over by some dipshit driving a truck on swampers that’s 3 times as big as they’ll ever need. Oh, wait, in other countries you don’t have to beg and plead to receive healthcare.

[axus]

Comes in handy when the government agents are rounding up your neighbors. Except when they direct that energy at the neighbors instead of the government agents.

[mekdoonggi]

In my experience, the cycling and native-plant gardening types of Minneapolis are the ones ready to throw the tear gas cans back, and the fireworks-loving Texans are salivating over the boots.

[nearlyepic]

No it doesn’t. The reactionary people are the ones cheering on the people doing the rounding, as long as it’s against people they don’t like.

That’s the problem with the mindset - if it was genuinely anarchistic it would be better. Instead, it’s just privileged and focused on creating an out group.

[warumdarum]

It is, yes it is. You should leave immediately if you dislike what you found.

[nearlyepic]

Aren’t people on this website supposed to be like, smart? If I wanted someone to tell me “if you don’t like it leave it” as if it’s an actual position worth arguing I could just go to the bar.

[megous]

Americans are always funny,... being proud they can have one day a year where they can breath a highly toxic air created by others or are forced not to ventilate their house and spend their day with a >2000ppm CO2 headache/drowsiness (or from the other PoV, proud they can inflict this on fellow Americans, even better).

"And if you don't like this, you can just git out!"

All the while they're stripped of dignity in the eyes of people abroad, by their aggressive/genocidal government's foreign policy actions.

[Scroll_Swe]

No, the issue is migrants.

Now vs 80s and the 90s.

[dmurray]

Fireworks on holidays were also a huge part of Chinese culture, but they've been banned now in cities and the ban seems to be mostly effective.

China even has the same issue as the US, where they aren't banned at the national level so you can still drive two hours and buy them legally. And whatever your stereotypes, China has plenty of scofflaws who aren't going to give something up just because the government tells them to, and its police are, very broadly, less heavy-handed as the US

I suspect banning firework sales in the US would have a significant impact.

[seanmcdirmid]

China goes up and down on this. In Beijing in 2002, fireworks were pretty muted, there were some but not many. In 2008, completely different, they even burned the facade off of that CCTV cultural center.

Note that Beijing is where the central government is the strongest, although Beijingers aren’t as law abiding as residents of south Chinese cities are. Still, they were selling fireworks (when they were allowed) inside the third ring, you didn’t have to go out to Hebei to get them.

As for what the policy is now, I couldnt tell you, and wouldn’t assume it was one way or the other.

[logicchains]

China's a police state where the government has absolute power and isn't limited even slightly by the constitution, with a disarmed population, it's completely incomparable.

[inigyou]

So is the USA. It's comparable.

[_heimdall]

Our government has absolute power without a constitution binding it and our population is disarmed?

[rbanffy]

We have seen the “checks and balances” were held together by decorum alone. We are now seeing what happens if decorum is absent and government officials regularly lie and mislead the public and other government officials without facing any consequences.

[inigyou]

Yes.

[sidewndr46]

Given American policing culture, I really don't buy that the police can't show up and start arresting you for public endangerment. They may not want to, but that is different

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I was talking to someone that hosts commercial-grade fireworks, every year, in his backyard.

He said the trick is to invite a couple of cops.

[chainingsolid]

The "trick" I've seen is just doing it with enough space to be safe and with property owner permission. The cops are likely caring about safety not the letter of culturally unenforceable law on July 4th. Problem is this don't work in the suburbs and cities, it's just to dense.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

We are very much in the suburbs. It can get crazy.

If you have a cop or two at the party, and, often, a volly firefighter running the sparks, it seems to be OK.

A few years ago, one of our neighbors was running one, and a mortar fired into his second story. It was a 5-alarm fire.

[Supermancho]

I remember this from the 80s. There were city-sponsored shows, or you had a cop "supervising" your neighborhood show.

[lwansbrough]

If they did this people like me would start setting off fireworks in protest.

[inigyou]

If you set off a firework in front of a cop to protest fireworks being illegal, that would be illegal and you'd go to jail

[quailfarmer]

But if you arrest him, I’m going to set off fireworks in protest. The market of stubbornness can remain solvent for a long time.

[IAmBroom]

Classic Internet Tough Guy boast. Imagine thinking that, when the police come to fine you, your neighbors will break the law in front of the police "to show them!". Your neighbors may be just smart enough to not invite the police to fine them, too.

The "market of stubbornness" is about one deep at any given moment.

[inigyou]

Cops have arrest quotas to meet - they don't mind arresting you too.

[klaff]

LOL, 25 years ago my neighbors and I were setting off fireworks over a yet-undeveloped part of our neighborhood. We saw police pull into the neighborhood. My family were the cowards who went inside. Our neighbors had to pay a fine. If we'd hung around we'd have paid a fine too.

[pseudohadamard]

I don't know what it's like now but that sounds like Europe in the 1980s. I remember going there from a country that restricted anything fancier than a sparkler and being amazed at all the cool things you could get. Blowing holes in snow forts with the larger Chinabölller was particularly fun.

[oasisbob]

Can only speak to my experience here in Washington, but 40 years ago you still needed to go to the reservation for the fun stuff. Even basic small firecrackers were outlawed in my county.

[hdgvhicv]

> Today, fireworks are outlawed in much of the US because safety

Hang on, fireworks are banned in the land of the free? But every kid should own an assault rifle?

[AstroNutt]

There are some states where you can still buy them year round. Holiday or not. South Carolina comes to mind because I was there a few months ago. They have giant stores all over the state.

[hylaride]

As a Canadian, the earliest memories I have of driving into the United States were seeing the giant "fireworks" billboards lining the interstate. I know it depends on the state, but it's one of those things you notice as an outsider.

[fragmede]

Yes, proper fireworks are banned in much of America. Guns aren't a total free for all, either.

[rbanffy]

I find it really amusing to see people carrying their assault rifles to grocery stores as if they are expecting a zombie outbreak or an alien invasion anytime now.

[gilbetron]

At least for where I grew up, you seem to have history backwards. 40-50 years ago fireworks were largely outlawed - the best I could play with as a kid were smokebombs, snaps, sparklers, and small fountains. Now fireworks are pretty much completely legal, even municipal grade cannons. This is why they are going off all over the place on July 4th.

[runako]

> impossibility of enforcing fireworks bans

Because fireworks are not usually homemade, enforcing bans is pretty easily done by cracking down on retailers who illegally sell them. They are easy to find (have to advertise) and have a lot to lose by breaking commerce laws. Notably, cannabis grows naturally in many climates in the US (so retail not strictly necessary) and we still ban it.

IIRC our state long prohibited the kind of fireworks that go into the air (roman candles, etc.) and only allowed sparklers and similar ground-effect pyrotechnics. Of course, the odd person would drive hundreds of miles with fireworks in their trunk, but overall the ban was fairly effective.

> No one is motivated to actually enforce it.

All that said, I am a fan of removing laws that continue to exist only as a pretext for targeting disfavored groups. A lot of the rot in the country is downstream of us not really being a nation of laws.

[NitpickLawyer]

> Even the nominal enforcers don’t believe in it. No one is motivated to actually enforce it.

Case in point, the ATC on this very flight said something along the lines of "Thanks for the report, I'll pass it on, but I doubt they'll be able to do something about it"...

[rayiner]

The twenty something guys in my neighborhood set off fireworks from a small boat in the river behind my house. Same guys took an ATV out on the ice when the river froze this winter. They haven’t died yet!

I draw the line at setting the tinderbox that’s california on fire however.

[stryan]

> This may be unsatisfying for many people but the impossibility of enforcing fireworks bans in the US captures an important component of the American zeitgeist. It is annoying for me sometimes but I recognize that this reflects an aspect of American culture that you can’t just erase.

I've taken to describing this aspect of Americana as "the fatal need to have a pretty good time", after the Minced Mockingbird post[0].

[0] https://www.mincingmockingbird.com/products/fatal-american-n...

[klaff]

I don't agree. I think it's a choice that each area has made between law enforcement and local governance. Regarding the St. Louis area, it really depends on which jurisdiction you are in. St. Louis County has over 90 municipalities. The neighboring counties are also fragmented but to a lesser degree. There are areas (mostly more rural) where it is legal and loud, some where it's not legal but enforcement is lacking, and there are quiet areas in which I assume enforcement does happen.

[porridgeraisin]

Yea, people have tried for decades to ban deepavali fireworks here in india with zero effect. It's simply not enforceable. The police themselves burst.

[hollerith]

The police erased fireworks explosions in my neighborhood in the Bay Area.

Two years ago, I heard thousands of explosions in the month of July, same as every year. Then last year, the police posted signs reminding people that fireworks are illegal and that they would begin issuing fines to violators. The number of explosions was about 30% of usual (i.e., still many hundreds of explosions). This year I've heard exactly one explosion (on July 03).

I unambiguously welcome this change. You mention safety, but fireworks are also hard on neighbors with PTSD.

Is littering also in your opinion "an important component of the American zeitgeist"?

Bicycle theft?

[mmooss]

Do you know where they are legal/illegal? Multiple places I know of have legalized them.

[ocdtrekkie]

Illinois prohibits unlicensed individuals from buying or setting off commercial grade fireworks. People buy them in Indiana. Some of the largest fireworks stores in the country sit right on the Indiana side of the state line.

[tatersolid]

Illinois bans nearly all fireworks, not just commercial grade. You can basically only buy sparklers or tiny fountains.

You have to visit Wisconsin or Indiana to get anything that pops, spins, bangs, or flies. Even those little ground spinners are banned in Illinois and they are hardly “commercial grade”.

[AstroNutt]

In Texas, you have to go outside of the city limits. South Carolina you can get them year round. There are other states that are legal year round, but I don't remember them off the top of my head.

[mihaaly]

Yes, the typical endangering or hurting others for the sake of fun culture, very very precious and rich culture indeed! : /

[goosejuice]

You could say the same about guns.

[camillomiller]

Imagine thinking you are saying something positive about American “culture” with your comment. Wow. You would have sounded more true to it by just writing “MMMURICA, AMIRIGHT!?!?”

[dylan604]

> Next year I'll definitely be planning an out-of-town vacation for the 4th to some location with firework restrictions

Fireworks are not legal to shoot in pretty much any city. They are not legal in my city. That did not stop them from being used. In fact, they are going off around me the night after too

[fumeux_fume]

In rural places where wildfire risks are very high, firework bans are usually enforced and respected.

[firesteelrain]

Depends on the state.

[wonnage]

They're legal to buy like an hour out of the city unfortunately

Also the 2A wingnuts think banning fireworks is akin to gun control https://www.tully-weiss.com/blog/fireworks-and-the-second-am...

[fumeux_fume]

My opinion about how people use fireworks changed when I adopted a dog from a shelter and discovered how deeply traumatizing booms are to her. From chatting with other dog owners this seems to be common. If my neighbors could see the extent fireworks affect the same friendly, silly pup their children love greeting everyday, they would probably think twice about how they use them. We can manage the night of the 4th by traveling out of town, but the 1-2 weeks of random booms that follow the holiday are really tough for us.

[duskdozer]

You certainly have a higher opinion of neighbors than I do. As far as any action that negatively intrudes on others, it seems the most likely responses are either that they are allowed to do what they want and you need to deal with it, or to do it even more now that they know it bothers you as punishment for you daring to ask.

[FatherOfCurses]

Yeah first 4th of July as a dog owner. He did relatively OK inside but we had a hell of a time taking him out for a walk. Every time we thought everyone was done blowing their loads someone else refueled and things started over again.

[crassus_ed]

I used to love the tradition of lighting fireworks but I think the way people have been using them has changed in the last decade. Everything seems to transform into a war zone and some people do incredibly dangerous things.

[CableNinja]

Its become a dick waggling contest. It will be quiet all night and then one person sets something off. Some other person "well ill show them who has better booms" and gets a bigger one, sets it off. Next thing you know its 30 minutes of booms and pops culminating in the largest boom possible, its goddamn irritatibg

[greggoB]

> one of them had a seizure

It's insane to me how much dogs are supposedly loved by such a large chunk of the pop, and yet people proceed to go apeshit with fireworks fully knowing how badly this affects them.

[xeromal]

My guess because we just read of the seizure stories online but 95% of dogs are ok with it. Mine is. There's a limit to dealing with edge cases that most people have.

Not saying this is how I feel or act though.

[erikerikson]

My dog, now passed after a long and happy life, loved fireworks deeply. It was his favorite day of the year. He would chase and pretend to bite, bark, and run around with joy.

To be fair, I am quite certain he was an outlier.

[nozzlegear]

We have three dogs of different breeds and ages, none of them handle fireworks well. They don't have seizures, but one of them turns into a quivering, shaking mess and the other two try to hide under couches and beds. I wish they were okay with it, but my wife and I have to plan our 4th around the dogs because of how they react.

[lazystar]

from OP:

>setting off commercial grade fireworks bursting hundreds of feet in the air. The house was shaking,

I'm in Bellevue, WA, and experienced house-shaking fireworks for the first time this year. I was inside with my cats - theyve always been more or less fine with fireworks, just hiding under the bed - but this year's house shakers were on another level. When the first one went off, I thought an accident had happened and a cache of fireworks had exploded. Scared the hell outta me. Then there were about 5 more like that spread across the next 5 hours. 0% of pets would be ok with these ones, I guarantee it. Idk if theyre new this year or what but Ill be doing the same as OP next year.

[mikeocool]

I think you’re probably right about people’s feelings on the matter.

Though in my experience dogs that are ok with fireworks are the edge case.

[strken]

I've had two dogs. One didn't like fireworks but would just turn his head towards the noise then walk over to the nearest human, and the other completely ignored them.

However! The first was a Labrador cross and the second was full lab. Breeds intended for use as gun dogs might not react to gunpowder and explosions as much.

[gadders]

Yeah, my dog either looks at them or ignores them. Same with thunderstorms.

[tessierashpool]

no, 95% of dogs are not okay with it.

95% of the dogs in your home are okay with it.

this study from Psychology Today finds that 83% of dogs freak out when they hear loud noises:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine-corner/202202...

[mminer237]

That study doesn't say "freak out". It says 83% ever showed "any fear" of fireworks, which is a huge variation. My doesn't like going outside when there are fireworks, but the sound of rain freaks him out way more.

[BenjiWiebe]

Our dog is not ok with fireworks or gunshots. He either goes into the basement (normally off limits) or into the bedroom (mostly off limits) when he hears them.

However it also took him quite a few years to get over his fear of thunder.

I think he'll survive even though he'd be included in the 83%.

[chrismorgan]

Not just dogs; more than a few humans don’t cope with loud noises of various kinds.

[billfor]

Good thing we didn’t have too many of those people during the revolution or we would still be part of Great Britain.

[jltsiren]

I guess you had more of those people after the revolution.

Many combat veterans react to anything resembling gunfire and explosions. And you can add drone noise to that these days.

[gosub100]

Hey, we cannot be patriotic here. The only fighting we support is the genocide in Gaza and helping Ukraine because "russia bad".

[billfor]

Most dogs in my neighborhood are ok with them. My own dog loves them. I try to keep him inside only because I think it might be bad for his hearing if he gets too close. Beyond basic temperament I wonder if owner training is implicated, as more people become annoyed by fireworks they don’t expose the dog to them at a young age.

[IAmBroom]

How on earth would you even presume to know this?

[billfor]

Just as you don't need to be a vet to know the difference between a dog and a cat.

I own a dog and it's common sense that a dog is a reflection of the owner, and when you have a dog you know every other owner and dog in the neighborhood (and the ones that use fireworks have dogs that don't mind fireworks). If you don't enjoy fireworks then you tend not to introduce the dog to fireworks at a young age, and the dog will tend to be afraid of them. Look up "optimal age to train a dog".

[thebruce87m]

I’m not a dog owner but aren’t you supposed to play fireworks on your TV at increasing volume in the preceding days to get them used to it?

That seems a better option than expecting everyone else to change their behaviour because of a pet you chose.

[AngryData]

Loud action movies seem to help a friend of mine's dog who otherwise acted like fireworks were the devil incarnate.

[jjtheblunt]

I've never heard that, like fireworks homeopathy or something? Where did you hear that?

[thebruce87m]

Here is the first non-Reddit link from Google: https://www.royalkennelclub.com/health-and-dog-care/health-d...

> Getting your dog used to loud and sudden noises can make them more relaxed and less reactive when the fireworks outside get going. There’s a good range of CDs and playlists of fireworks, storms, and loud noises available, and playing these can really help your dog desensitise to the noise.

> Start by playing the sounds at a low volume, and as your dog gets used to it you can slowly increase the volume over a period of time so that they become used to the noise. This can work especially well with young dogs and puppies, and can let you nip any problems in the bud before they even arise.

[jjtheblunt]

interesting!

[Amezarak]

What do they do during thunderstorms?

[colechristensen]

The degradation of canine genetics and behavior to the point where loud noises cause seizures is pretty absurd. I love dogs but I grew up around working dogs. City people have pushed dog breeding to the point where the desirable dog is riddled with some pretty extreme codependency and anxiety that they mistake for affection and companionship. The poor animals spending their lives in a few hundred square feet and completely alone for a large majority of their lives kinda sickens me.

[quantum_magpie]

Jeez, just imagine a ballistic missile hitting your neighbour's house, with no indication or alert coming ahead. I would bet a good 50€ that you'd be freaking the shit out.

[petre]

I agree, but luckily my terrier apparently doesn't give a poo about fireworks. Probably nobody jad thrown fireworks at him yet. My inlaws' country dog (also a fox terrier mix with the same temperament) growls at people, especially teens, smelling of powder and barks at fireworks and motorbikes. Good thing he's not a Malinois to nip those teens and chase the motorbikes. So it'a more of a nature vs. nurture thing.

[colechristensen]

dog behavior is strictly a reflection of their owner

[borski]

Given that most dogs are adopted from shelters, dog behavior is often a reflection of early upbringing. The current owner can train and teach their dog, but some behaviors and fears set in fairly early on.

Moreover, many dogs are beaten or worse when they’re young, and undoing that fear and trauma is a lifelong (for the dog) struggle.

Thus, dog behavior is far from “strictly a reflection of their [current] owner.”

[anon7725]

Nearly all animals are afraid of fireworks:

https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/the-devastating-effects-o...

Fireworks are a traumatic and disruptive intrusion on their environment akin to a temporary war. We (humans) already do enough traumatic and disruptive intrusions on the lives of wild animals, that doing this wholly unnecessary “just for funsies” thing is particularly cruel.

It’s rich how you’ve decided to call out “city people” as being responsible for the situation rather than the trash individuals who set off illegal fireworks.

[tick_tock_tick]

I mean I think most people would agree it's completely irresponsible and borderline absuive to own a dog and stay in nearly any city in the USA during the 4th.

People rightfully blame the owners it's not like this is a surprise for them.....

[9dev]

All other animals too. There are tons studies about the effects of New Year’s Eve fireworks on birds, for example, that are devastating.

Most people just don’t care about anything but themselves. It’s disgusting me to no end.

[chneu]

Like 80% of dog owners treat dogs like possessions. When I say "like possessions" I mean they abuse them by physical means or by locking them into small apartments and not meeting the animals basic needs. It's wild how people trap dogs into small city/suburb boxes and then 'train' them to be good(break them). I stand by 80% if you account for global numbers and not just western/developed nations.

In much of the developed world it's weirdly mandatory to have a dog or cat. The way folks treat them is so messed up. Then these folks turn around and claim they love animals. It's nonsense. Most people don't need a pet nor do they treat them like an animal lover would.

But words have no meaning nowadays. Everyone is everything they want to be.

[celrod]

A few years ago, on July 4th one of my mom's dogs freaked out, somehow managed to escape, and got hit by a car before my mom found her. She loved that dog, regularly attending nose work competitions with it. One of your pets getting a seizure must be harrowing for both you and the dog.

I don't light fireworks.

[stasomatic]

My female Weimaraner was terrified of thunderstorms and fireworks. Once, she managed to squeeze herself under my Mini Cooper. I didn't know at the time that panic vests were a thing. The breed is a gun dog ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I forget how we managed to get her out from under there, but it took a bit. My Akita doesn't care, he checks the balcony, yawns, and back to his toys. But he is a afraid of air balloons and blow up Christmas Santas. Go figure.

[ricardobayes]

Fallas festival in Valencia is not your thing then. But at least I realized why there is an audiologist on every corner.

[AmVess]

I moved across states a few years ago. In the old neighborhood, people would be drunk and lighting that crap off for hours and hours. Completely moronic and thoughtless.

Here, it is illegal. First offense is a fine, second offense is jail.

[geerlingguy]

As another STL resident, fireworks are illegal everywhere in the County (not sure if St. Charles as well, but probably), and our local muni PD even sent out multiple warnings about prosecution.

But our inner ring suburb was similarly full of smoke last night and the smell of many amateur fireworks shows.

Only a few in my neighborhood, but they were quite the production. I remember firing a few bottle rockets as a kid, but these were definitely a few steps above that! Sounded like mini mortars, maybe those boxes with a bunch of shells timed to go after each other.

[techcode]

That description sounds like every New Years Eve in The Netherlands.

Few days ago a law that forbids non professionals to set off fireworks started applying... We'll see if that makes any difference.

[ricardobayes]

We'll see if we ever get something like that in Spain. I guess not, fireworks are just too deep in the culture here.

[messe]

Denmark too. Aarhus looks like a war zone from the smoke on new years.

[thx67]

STL is famous for having a large number of folks shooting guns into the air on New Years. So much so that there are warnings to not go outside. Stay safe.

[SilverElfin]

There have also been incidents of people being hit by those bullets. It’s just so reckless and dangerous for people to do that. But there’s always someone doing it …

[chasil]

It would be more practical if major cities had "fireworks zones" with ambulances on call and perhaps some safety advice.

[scrapcode]

> out-of-town vacation for the 4th to some location with firework restrictions.

You have quite the faith in code enforcement.

[PaulHoule]

I spent a year in Germany and Oh God do Germans shoot off fireworks for the New Year. Most of the time Germans live up to the stereotype of neat, clean, quiet, polite but the next day there is a mess of firework wrappers all over the street.

[moralestapia]

>one of them had a seizure

People might say you just made this up for internet points. But this is real, this is an actual thing that happens to dogs (and other pets) when exposed to prolong fireworks noise!

[msisk6]

Yeah, it really happened. But to be fair the little dog in question is prone to seizures and all the booming certainly set this one off. She was fine after things calmed down around midnight.

[emeril]

-having lived in MO, yeah, pretty scary

-don't miss the hill restaurants

-maybe still stick around if you own a house such as to help prevent it being set ablaze that night inadvertently...

[jtbayly]

Given your statement of "hundreds of feet" I guess I can take the rest of your post with a large pinch of salt, too.

[msisk6]

I don't know fireworks that well, but these appeared to be the commercial type, with a large lift-charge that lights the sky up with a lightning style flash followed by a sky burst and the house-shaking boom of the sort I usually associate with shows put on the city or whatnot. I had two of these "shows" going on just north of me and one to the south.

And I have a pretty good idea of heights around here. I mentioned I work at Boeing on flying things so I track the ones that fly over me. They're usually about 1000 to 1500 ft. AGL on approach when they go over my house and about 200 knots. Southwest has the most flights into and out of St. Louis so it's usually a 737, and those have a wingspan of just over 100 feet on the newer models.

So yeah, I'd say these fireworks were going up at least 300 feet.

[jtbayly]

My apologies. Apparently my own estimate about how high fireworks generally go was way off.

[ButlerianJihad]

On Reddit last year, I found a link to a City of Phoenix dashboard that monitors all the county-wide emergency dispatch calls that are not suppressed for privacy/security reasons. I watch it throughout the day and night, especially on holidays like this one.

I counted upwards of 23 fires on the map at any single point in time, between sunset and 11pm. Most of those calls indicated either debris fires, or Dumpster fires, but there were also roof fires and vehicle fires, including one police-involved car accident.

I stayed inside all weekend after attending church on Saturday evening. The Air Force flyover was not visible in my area. I immensely enjoyed the celebrations on live streaming. And singing my heart out, creating new playlists.

[agensaequivocum]

> Next year I'll definitely be planning an out-of-town vacation for the 4th to some location with firework restrictions.

Opposite for me, I plan on vacationing to somewhere I can have more fun with my kids.

[fortran77]

Howdy, neighbor! (We are on Main Street)

[incanus77]

> Next year I'll definitely be planning an out-of-town vacation for the 4th to some location with firework restrictions.

Then like me you can just worry about whether some dipshit is going to burn your house down while you're away.

[msisk6]

It'll be fine; the house is insured. ;)

Luckily it's so wet here at the moment the fire risk is minimal.