[EdiX]

We've known this since the Snowden leaks 13 years ago. In a couple of years there will probably be a president in the US that will be more palatable for the european political class and we'll all be able to go back to pretending this doesn't happen.

After all the EU is too compromised energetically, militarily, industrially, burocratically and democratically to ever achieve independence. Talking about digital sovereignty as we ban construction of new datacenter is just too cute. This is all just political theater as we peacefully sunset into a museum continent.

[Havoc]

I don’t think that trust is coming back with a simple president swap.

[graemep]

Downvotes for stating a reasonable, and probably correct argument.

Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world.

The UK is a bit of an exception in being aware of it and actually talking about it. That is about it.

[lava_pidgeon]

"Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world."

I disagree on this broad statement.

[graemep]

Why? I see statements like this as evidence of denial - the same with the downvotes. No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong".

Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline?

Shooting the messenger is just another sign of being in denial.

[saulapremium]

>No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong".

You presented no argument yourself, just a broad "denial". Which is, as GP said, is wrong. I am sure plenty of people are in denial but plenty are well aware of the real situation and doing things about it.

[vrganj]

The EU in just the past year has signed deals with Latin America and India in addition to the already existing ones with South Korea, Canada, Japan etc.

It has positioned itself at the center of the world's largest free trade zone.

It's managed to replace US contributions to Ukraine and looks like its in the process of bloodying Russia's nose.

Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

[EdiX]

Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy. And the india's deal is saddling us with more third world immigration that will only make things worse.

It seems to me that this is still all the EU not keeping up with where the world is going. We started drafting the mercosur agreement 27 years ago so we finalize it and call it a victory, all that it's probably going to do is precipitate the demise of our domestic agribusiness, so that farmers won't be able to cause a ruckus in Brussels anymore.

[kergonath]

> Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy.

We do not need China to be a democracy. That’s a matter for the Chinese people. Imposing a form of government from outside rarely works and is really counter-productive most of the time.

[EdiX]

The point of all this free trade ideology is that it would make the whole world into peaceful liberal democracies. If it doesn't do that, why are we doing it? We're just making ourselves dependent on dangerous dicators while simultaneously enriching them.

[vrganj]

Our defense industry and economic might are plenty to stop Russia.

China's system of government is China's matter. I think we could learn a lot from them, actually.

Immigration will be vital to the survival of Europe. We are far below replacement level birth rates and we'll need new young people to keep our societies functioning. Being European is about values, not the color of your skin. If immigrants don't live up to those, we can sanction. But we can't just let Europe die out because of some sense of racial superiority.

[graemep]

The EU has expanded to incorporate many more countries but is a much smaller fraction of the world's economy than it was in the 70s. Europe is the world's slowest growing region so this will continue.

[vrganj]

Youre only counting the core, not the periphery we bound to us through deals I mentioned.

Korea, Canada, Latin America, India. They're all bound to us. Europe is just the imperial capital of the largest economic region in the world.

[koonsolo]

We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. I would say we are making progress on both. China is not happy with recent EU decision for example.

Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted.

Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe.

We have to step up our game for sure, and everyone in Europe knows it. But the race is definitely not lost yet.

[graemep]

Making progress how? High economic growth? No. An effective military? Nothing compared to the 1980s.

The UK's defence minister resigned today because of the prime minister's refusal to adequately fund defence.

[Ray20]

> We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily.

It doesn't seems like this. It hasn't even been ten years since Europeans ridiculed Trump for making such calls, and it doesn't look like anything has changed.

> Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted.

Why do you think access to the European market is so critical?

> Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe.

Ukraine is a deindustrialized country, corrupt at every level. Their experience is worth little, and if you think they understand what a drone warfare is, wait until you see China in action, which has thousands of times more capable engineers and can produce drones that are better, ten times cheaper, and in tens of thousands times greater volume.

[usrnm]

Well, Russia is trying to do something about it and I think we can all agree that there are wrong ways to go about it. Simply being incompetent, like the EU, is not the worst possible scenario.

Btw, say what you will about Russia, but it's light years ahead of the EU in digital sovereignty. One of the reasons it did not crumble under sanctions.