[koonsolo]

We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. I would say we are making progress on both. China is not happy with recent EU decision for example.

Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted.

Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe.

We have to step up our game for sure, and everyone in Europe knows it. But the race is definitely not lost yet.

[graemep]

Making progress how? High economic growth? No. An effective military? Nothing compared to the 1980s.

The UK's defence minister resigned today because of the prime minister's refusal to adequately fund defence.

[koonsolo]

Europe is making big investments in military, there is no denying it. And comparing to the 1980's? Maybe look at how the borders have shifted since the 1980's, and then we'll talk again about how Western Europe is "declining". All those USSR satellite states and plenty of SSR's are now part of us, or want to be part of us.

I agree we don't have high economic growth, mainly an issue with scaleups and regulation. There are also plenty of initiatives there, like EU Inc.

We are waking up, so claiming that we are sleeping at the wheel is plain false.

[Ray20]

> We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily.

It doesn't seems like this. It hasn't even been ten years since Europeans ridiculed Trump for making such calls, and it doesn't look like anything has changed.

> Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted.

Why do you think access to the European market is so critical?

> Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe.

Ukraine is a deindustrialized country, corrupt at every level. Their experience is worth little, and if you think they understand what a drone warfare is, wait until you see China in action, which has thousands of times more capable engineers and can produce drones that are better, ten times cheaper, and in tens of thousands times greater volume.