[graemep]

Downvotes for stating a reasonable, and probably correct argument.

Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world.

The UK is a bit of an exception in being aware of it and actually talking about it. That is about it.

[lava_pidgeon]

"Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world."

I disagree on this broad statement.

[graemep]

Why? I see statements like this as evidence of denial - the same with the downvotes. No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong".

Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline?

Shooting the messenger is just another sign of being in denial.

[saulapremium]

>No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong".

You presented no argument yourself, just a broad "denial". Which is, as GP said, is wrong. I am sure plenty of people are in denial but plenty are well aware of the real situation and doing things about it.

[snowpid]

" Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline? "

Yes and most of my friends are aware. It isnt a big problem because Quality of Life is still very fine. So present your arguments. How are people in denial?

[vrganj]

The EU in just the past year has signed deals with Latin America and India in addition to the already existing ones with South Korea, Canada, Japan etc.

It has positioned itself at the center of the world's largest free trade zone.

It's managed to replace US contributions to Ukraine and looks like its in the process of bloodying Russia's nose.

Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

[EdiX]

Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy. And the india's deal is saddling us with more third world immigration that will only make things worse.

It seems to me that this is still all the EU not keeping up with where the world is going. We started drafting the mercosur agreement 27 years ago so we finalize it and call it a victory, all that it's probably going to do is precipitate the demise of our domestic agribusiness, so that farmers won't be able to cause a ruckus in Brussels anymore.

[kergonath]

> Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy.

We do not need China to be a democracy. That’s a matter for the Chinese people. Imposing a form of government from outside rarely works and is really counter-productive most of the time.

[EdiX]

The point of all this free trade ideology is that it would make the whole world into peaceful liberal democracies. If it doesn't do that, why are we doing it? We're just making ourselves dependent on dangerous dicators while simultaneously enriching them.

[Epa095]

   The point of all this free trade ideology is that it would make the whole world into peaceful liberal democracies.

No, it's truly not. Yes, for some time it was said (and probably believed) that free trade, capitalism, and democracy were all mutually dependent. But that has turned out to be false.

But the reason for free trade is economy, and that it in theory makes everyone richer (but not necessarily free). In reality things are more complicated, both in term of strategic dependency, and distribution of the increased wealth. But economy is the answer to your question.

[vrganj]

Our defense industry and economic might are plenty to stop Russia.

China's system of government is China's matter. I think we could learn a lot from them, actually.

Immigration will be vital to the survival of Europe. We are far below replacement level birth rates and we'll need new young people to keep our societies functioning. Being European is about values, not the color of your skin. If immigrants don't live up to those, we can sanction. But we can't just let Europe die out because of some sense of racial superiority.

[EdiX]

> Immigration will be vital to the survival of Europe. We are far below replacement level birth rates and we'll need new young people to keep our societies functioning

Third world immigration actually makes things worse in two ways. The first one is that we have recently discovered that third world immigrants are net negative economically across their lifetime due to social security. The second one is that they all move to the big cities exacerbating the sponge city problem and its effects on fertility.

> But we can't just let Europe die out because of some sense of racial superiority.

What we are actually doing is we are letting europe die out of a sense of moral superiority, that we can do away with nasty (hydrocarbons) or scary (nuclear) sources of energy, that we must take in every third worlder because letting them live in the thrid world is a crime, that AI must be regulated to death because it enriches billionaries and "technofascists", etc etc

It reminds me of that scene in the ninth gate, we are going bankrupt in the way former nobility goes bankrupt.

[graemep]

The EU has expanded to incorporate many more countries but is a much smaller fraction of the world's economy than it was in the 70s. Europe is the world's slowest growing region so this will continue.

[vrganj]

Youre only counting the core, not the periphery we bound to us through deals I mentioned.

Korea, Canada, Latin America, India. They're all bound to us. Europe is just the imperial capital of the largest economic region in the world.

[graemep]

You seriously think that those countries are bound to Europe? That Europe is their imperial capital? Anyone from those countries here who feels that Europe is their imperial capital?

Those countries also have trade deals with each other, and with other trading blocks. The EU us not the top trading partners for any one of them, and, because its low growth, is becoming increasingly less important to all of them.

People seriously think this but it was people voting for Brexit that were suppose remainers claimed hankering for empire.

This sort of claim is pure wishful thinking, and only strengthens my belief that Europeans are in denial.

[koonsolo]

We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. I would say we are making progress on both. China is not happy with recent EU decision for example.

Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted.

Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe.

We have to step up our game for sure, and everyone in Europe knows it. But the race is definitely not lost yet.

[graemep]

Making progress how? High economic growth? No. An effective military? Nothing compared to the 1980s.

The UK's defence minister resigned today because of the prime minister's refusal to adequately fund defence.

[koonsolo]

Europe is making big investments in military, there is no denying it. And comparing to the 1980's? Maybe look at how the borders have shifted since the 1980's, and then we'll talk again about how Western Europe is "declining". All those USSR satellite states and plenty of SSR's are now part of us, or want to be part of us.

I agree we don't have high economic growth, mainly an issue with scaleups and regulation. There are also plenty of initiatives there, like EU Inc.

We are waking up, so claiming that we are sleeping at the wheel is plain false.

[Ray20]

> We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily.

It doesn't seems like this. It hasn't even been ten years since Europeans ridiculed Trump for making such calls, and it doesn't look like anything has changed.

> Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted.

Why do you think access to the European market is so critical?

> Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe.

Ukraine is a deindustrialized country, corrupt at every level. Their experience is worth little, and if you think they understand what a drone warfare is, wait until you see China in action, which has thousands of times more capable engineers and can produce drones that are better, ten times cheaper, and in tens of thousands times greater volume.

[usrnm]

Well, Russia is trying to do something about it and I think we can all agree that there are wrong ways to go about it. Simply being incompetent, like the EU, is not the worst possible scenario.

Btw, say what you will about Russia, but it's light years ahead of the EU in digital sovereignty. One of the reasons it did not crumble under sanctions.