[franciscop]

I know someone close who grows oranges in Spain. He has to go through hell, had to rework multiple times the fields so that they pass the strict Spanish regulation for organic produce. They get evaluated not only on the final product being pesticide free, but also on the full process being compliant, with heavy fines for non compliance.

This is fine-ish, except that the imported oranges get checked only seldomly (if that) and are given a lot of leeway, making it very hard to compete if you grow them locally. Last couple of years saw some profit for growing them locally, but it's been times where there was literally no profit at all for 5+ years.

Funny story: he requested a permit to build a well, and ofc it takes forever so he just waited. After 4-5 years waiting, having even forgotten about it, someone called him: "we're here to inspect the well". What well? You haven't given me permission yet. "yes, we know, but people build them anyway before getting permission so we thought you'd do the same".

[CalRobert]

I was surprised after moving to Ireland to discover that you can break the law and nothing will happen. I went through hell with planners (idiots who don’t believe in climate change and hate eaves) while people around me put three mobile homes on their land as well as building two permanent homes with no permission (and ripping out ancient hedgerows) and successfully got retention. Why even bother?

[beAbU]

2 months ago there was a story about a huge family mansion in Meath being demolished after a court found they did not have the proper planning permissions, and the council was unwilling to grant the permissions after the fact. Also just last week a judge ordered the demolition/removal of 26 mobile homes from a site in Dublin set up without permissions.

Friends of mine recently got planning permission for a house they've been living in for about 3 years already.

So you can def roll the dice on such things, maybe you get away with it for decades, maybe your house gets flattened.

My (also an immigrant like you) take on Ireland is that many of these systems are run and controlled by humans, and you can get pretty far by trying to make that human connection with the people controlling your fate. My wife was initially refused maternity benefit, because she did not have enough social security contributions. She works part-time, and she was missing 1 contribution (about €120) out of something like 38 for the year. After friends (the same from above) suggested we phone them and talk to the people, the maternity benefit application was approved. I find that there is a lot less "sorry can't help you, computer says no" here.

[CalRobert]

True, and we did find that we could at least talk to our TD pretty easily, which was good for a sympathetic ear but didn't change much.

Might be worth noting that the house you mention was built 20 years ago. https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/housing-planning/2026/05/...

And indeed, rules against mobile homes are actually enforced in Dublin, but outside the pale we definitely had a different experience.

[deaux]

> I find that there is a lot less "sorry can't help you, computer says no" here.

Unless of course you need assistance with a privacy issue concerning US big tech. Then suddenly you'll be met with nothing but silence in Ireland, as the stream of incoming billions from being a compliance haven for criminal US companies must continue flowing.

[Pay08]

In common parlance, that's called corruption.

[beAbU]

Interesting that you think this is corruption or favours are being offered up. I wonder how you'll react when confronted by some real corruption.

[Pay08]

Corruption like Orbán stealing my taxes to fund a palace for himself? This is the most smug, privileged thing I've read in a while. If you're fine with corruption, say it loud and proud.

[CalRobert]

Definitely is an embodiment of class/accent/skin colour privilege.

[some_random]

It's funny you say this because, at least from what I've seen, groups that are historically discriminated against seem to be receiving more latitude in skirting the law.

[_heimdall]

What did I miss in the GP comment that points to the decisions being made on class, accent, or skin color?

[CalRobert]

My suspicion is that leaving things like e.g. qualification for social benefits to the judgment of whoever happens to be talking to the claimant introduces the possibility of bias entering the decision.

[Pay08]

No, it's just good old corruption and/or nepotism.

[Tade0]

I jokingly refer to this as the Catholic principle: "sin first - confess and repent later" as it's a common theme in countries that are/were traditionally Catholic, including my own.

It's really just places culturally untouched by Calvinism, Puritanism and the like, all of which put emphasis on order.

The last thing to attempt bringing order to them were various forms of authoritarianism and they didn't last. I think we can agree this is not the right approach.

[mathieuh]

It's not just a Catholic thing, in Book II of Plato's Republic (written ~2,400 years ago) Adeimantus mentions that some people say there's no point in acting justly because you can just act unjustly and sacrifice to the gods later to make it up.

[lo_zamoyski]

You joke, but it's not remotely Catholic in principle. A confession is by definition invalid if premeditated.

A presupposition of confession is that you have contrition and the resolve not to sin and wish to receive absolution (which doesn't remove the need for temporal justice btw). Premeditation and without remorse turns that confession into an empty act, and indeed, another sin.

Calvinists also believe in confession. Indeed, it doesn't even require the uncomfortable encounter with a priest. You can just do it privately in their view.

This touches on the purpose of sacraments in the Catholic Church. They are meant to be visible signs that give assurance and certainty that something has taken place. If a human being were to show perfect contrition (very rare), then there is no need for the confessional (and ultimately, God is not bound by the sacraments). But for the penitent, the confessional gives assurance of absolution, provided there is some measure of requisite contrition. You don't have to wonder about your eternal fate after leaving the confessional.

The idea that Catholic societies are corrupt or and Calvinist societies are tidy and ordered is a stereotype, and it is silly and ahistorical to claim that you need authoritarianism to bring order to Catholic countries. Catholic societies have a greater tolerance for the messiness of human life. It views itself like a field hospital ready to provide people with means to get back up and to heal. Calvinists, on the other hand, are strangled by their constant anxiety about whether they are part of the elect or not. That can translate into rigidity, rigorism, scrupulosity, and OCD. These, in turn, can resort in a backlash of moral laxity.

(Another stereotype is the Protestant work ethic. Apparently, no one ever heard of the Benedictines and their influence on Europe. There is also a healthy attitude toward work and an unhealthy one.)

[istjohn]

It's the saying, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission."

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/06/19/forgive/

[CalRobert]

Maybe I'm a Calvinist. I'm definitely happier in the Netherlands. My general experience was that Irish laws existed mostly for show and if you followed them you were a chump. Unless you wanted to smoke a joint now and then, of course.

Ireland supposedly cares about nature too, but you can still buy truckloads of turf off the side of the road in Offaly. Good luck getting those rules enforced.

When we still lived in Dublin I got pretty tired of having to push my baby in her pram in the street because the pavements (sidewalks) were completely covered in cars, even in the city centre trying to get to the YMCA creche.

Our experience wasn't limited to "victimless" crimes though. I think when you're threatening your neighbours and letting dangerous dogs loose on other people's land where there's kids or sheep then authoritarianism is called for.

It really is a place where crime is legal.

[Bewelge]

You may have a point but you're discrediting yourself by using extreme hyperbole.

Authoritarianism would be you and your family getting picked up and interrogated sometime at night for this critical comment you just made.

And saying "crime is legal" when referring to cars parked on the sidewalk or you having had a bad experience with a neighbours dog? I think if you reflect a little you'd realise that these are the kind of "crimes" you probably have committed yourself countless times.

[kakacik]

Thats some mighty hyperbole, not everybody is breaking some minor (or not so minor) laws 50x a day. Or a year.

Societies where there is high amount of respect towards each other and rules tend to perform much better over long time, ie Switzerland. Its a pleasure to live in such society especially when coming from more messy ones, triple that with small kids.

[skinfaxi]

> Thats some mighty hyperbole, not everybody is breaking some minor (or not so minor) laws 50x a day. Or a year.

How do you know? Do you know of all of the protected species of bug in your country for instance?

In my town there are laws about using profanity in public. I'm sure they would be deemed illegal if charges were brought but the law is still on the books.

[CalRobert]

I’ve never let dogs with a history of killing livestock on to my neighbours’ land where kids are playing.

But regardless, I’m much happier since leaving.

[Bewelge]

I don't want to discount your experience or judge that particular event. I just disagree with calling for authoritarianism in response to that.

Happy that you are happier :) I'm German, so in general I find it refreshing when people manage to live peacefully with each other without having a rule for every single thing. Obviously a dog endangering children is not such a case.

[Pay08]

The dog thing specifically was very heavily policed in the part of Spain I used to live in. It being unenforced would be unheard of.

[teleforce]

Last year I was in a Samsung shop when one couple remarked to me that it was the second time they came to buy the same phone for the wife in a month. Then naturally I asked for the reason why, I thought they like it so much to buy a second one.

Apparently the couple just recently come back from a trip in Ireland and lost the new Samsung phone there. Someone has stolen the wife's baggage from the bus when it's doing the routine transit stop by the bus stop while opening the bus baggage conpartment. By the time they realised the thief already going away from the bus with the baggage with the new Samsung phone inside it. They reported to the police but nothing happened. In UAE, Singapore or Japan this type of crime is just not worth it since the petty thief will be punished severely. A lady can incidently left her Louis Vuitton bag inside a restaurant in Dubai, left it at her seat, then after a few hours come back to fetch the bag without losing anything inside.

[jamespo]

what happens if you criticise the government in these safe countries?

[cultofmetatron]

what happens if you criticize the government with regard to certain topics in the UK on social media?

https://nypost.com/2025/08/19/world-news/uk-free-speech-stru...

[reliabilityguy]

What happens if you criticize the government of Japan?

[Hnrobert42]

Generally nothing. In Singapore, there are some risks.

[_heimdall]

> I think when you're threatening your neighbours and letting dangerous dogs loose on other people's land where there's kids or sheep then authoritarianism is called for.

It doesn't have to require authoritarianism to keep the peace. It also doesn't seem like it could only be solved by an authority. If there's a dangerous dog on your property, shoot it if you can't get it to leave and fear for the safety of your kids or sheep.

[CalRobert]

That's great until the retaliation.

[_heimdall]

Sure, every action has reactions. I'm not saying the first response should be to shoot the dog in such a scenario, it should be the last resort least of all because it wasn't the dog creating the situation.

It and to be handled though. Yes, there may be retaliation for shooting the dog but there may be retaliation for calling the cops as well. All you can do is deal with the situation at hand, there is no magic bullet authority or otherwise.

[Tade0]

> I think when you're threatening your neighbours and letting dangerous dogs loose on other people's land

I know too little about this specific situation, but did the neighbour not stop despite being asked to?

I haven't been to Ireland or the Netherlands (aside from driving through of course), but from what I've heard I would not like it in the latter. Nature appears to be scarce there, as for some reason the Dutch insist on being an agricultural superpower despite the population density.

[liminvorous]

The reason is roughly that there were devastating food shortages in the world wars, and avoiding that happening again has been an important force in Dutch politics since.

[Tade0]

Oooh shit, now it all makes perfect sense. Thank you!

[CalRobert]

The neighbour screamed at me never to talk to her or her kids.

[pstuart]

> authoritarianism is called for

Maybe it's a language thing, but authoritarianism is never called for.

Rule of law that is just and enforced fairly is what is called for.

[CGMthrowaway]

> I think when you're threatening your neighbours and letting dangerous dogs loose on other people's land where there's kids or sheep then authoritarianism is called for.

You jumped straight to authoritarianism? How about trying self-defense?

Boy you really are a Calvinist

[forlorn_mammoth]

The guy who carries a pistol and shoots the neighbor's dogs in self defense, I would expect that guy to face some social consequences and he'd be lucky if it was just the police.

Hobbes. we create the Leviathan so we don't have to constantly act in self defense. The alternative was cold, brutish, and short.

[some_random]

Europeans largely do not believe in the right to self defense

[sublimefire]

OMG the planning system is definitely an issue in this country. I did try to wing it but had to demolish a small structure, retention was not approved. Their letters are insanely threatening, like you can go to jail or pay a fine in millions. But then another time I just did the planning permission in my own name, drawings and all and it was approved fairly quickly despite me not being an eng or arch. It depends on the town/city you are in and the planning department. I used to deal with planning in other European countries and Ireland just lacks technical supervision step, hence the dependence on neighbours notifying the council and on the front loading of the initial application process.

[CalRobert]

There also are a lot of things that could help a lot with reducing heat gain in the summer that planners are strongly opposed to, like eaves (which let in the sun in winter but not in the midday in summer), and I can't fathom why.

[andy_ppp]

We’ve had a warmer than average year worldwide every year since 1976. I suppose it’s just coincidence that exactly what climate scientists said would happen keeps happening and keeps getting worse.

[s_dev]

There is a lot of truth to this but things are changing e.g. those houses without planning permission getting torn down. That simply would not have happened two decades ago.

[trick-or-treat]

Sure, but you have to move to Ireland. That's a deal-breaker for most folks.

[CalRobert]

Yeah, we ended up leaving in part because of how lawless our area was (the midlands)

[rendall]

I'd love to hear more about this if you have the time. What specific things happened?

[CalRobert]

Family next door had 17 kids (yes, from one mother), 5 dangerous dogs, and absolutely despised us (somehow we thought having a few acres of land would make worrying about neighbours less necessary). There was an ongoing decades-old land feud with the farmer behind both of our homes. The aforementioned dangerous dogs killed several of the farmer's sheep, so the farmer finally shot and killed one of the dogs during an attack on said sheep, which escalated tensions. We had 2 and 4 year old kids who, it's worth noting, were roughly the size of sheep and about as tempting for the dogs to kill, so we were basically terrified to let our kids outside. Neighbours routinely insulted us, yelled at us, and threw garbage (including old chemical containers, sharp metal, etc.) on to our land.

They also routinely trespassed and shot fireworks over our thatch roof (the roof was part thatch, part modern) - very concerning when your roof is more flammable than kindling. Finally they left a dead crow in a bag by our door which felt like a threat, so we sold the place at a €100k loss and moved to the Netherlands.

Gardai were absolutely lazy, uncaring, and useless, and did absolutely nothing.

Now I encourage everyone I can to stay as far away from rural Ireland as possible.

[saeedesmaili]

How has the experience in the Netherlands been? Did you move to a rural area in the Netherlands?

[dmos62]

What an absolute nightmare! Did this teach you anything valuable? Apart from staying away from rural Ireland.

[__alexs]

It's always worth understanding the consequences of non compliance before you'd decide to comply (and vice versa.)

[jenadine]

> strict Spanish regulation for organic produce.

Organic labels are a different thing than official regulation though. IMHO organic labels optimize for the wrong things.

[tfourb]

There is an official eu organic label. It’s not compulsory of course, but it’s the baseline for organic food production in and for Europe. Other (private) labels have stricter rules and are usually certified in addition to the EU label.

[franciscop]

No, this is definitely an official gvmt body that can fine you if you try to sell fruit as organic that doesn't follow the regulations. It IS definitely compulsory if you mark your produce as organic.

[lukan]

"IMHO organic labels optimize for the wrong things."

What do you mean?

I only know of "Demeter", that also has some very esoteric requirements (homeopathy, cosmic energy flow rituals) - but otherwise organic label optimize for:

- no or little pesticides and herbicides

- more space and better condition for the animals

My only other grievance is that they also all ban GMO

[culi]

Biodynamic at least requires farms to produce their own fertilizers. For that reason alone I try to buy it. Fertilizer dependency will be the end of us

I ignore all the magic stuff (in fact, if you have some spiritual devotion to the food you're growing I think that's just fine)

[jenadine]

They optimise for natural. So you can still have pesticides and herbicides. If you find your poison in some plant, it is fine. If you synthetize the same molecule in a factory, then it's not allowed.

As for the animal welfare, true, but there are also labels specifically for that that.

[fsflover]

> no or little pesticides and herbicides

From Wikipedia:

> Pesticides are allowed as long as they are not synthetic.[28]

See also:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48451194

[lukan]

Am aware of that, bug glyphosat is definitely not allowed and likely a result of neighbors spraying plentiful in bad wind conditions (there are strict regulations in theory, that are usually ignored in reality)

[jimnotgym]

This is a common complaint in the EU, since enforcement is by ones own government, everyone believes that they are the only ones being held to account. It may or may not be true in general, but it sure gives that impression

[vladvasiliu]

The way I understand it, at least here in France, the complaint isn't exactly that some other random EU country has lax enforcement of the EU laws. Rather, it's about the various trade agreements with non-EU countries not known for their strict rules. The latest one being with Mercosur, and the main gripe being with Brazil (presumably because of their huge output, not sure if they're considered worse than the others by whatever metric). Another usual suspect is "ukrainian chicken".

Sure, the agreements say that whatever is imported needs to comply with this or that standard, but customs rarely inspect these. So you end up importing produce which is much cheaper than the local-grown one and which also doesn't comply with the strict local laws. That's where the "unfair competition" happens.

Sure, I bet French farmers aren't too happy to see tomatoes or whatever grown in other EU countries with cheaper labor flood the local market. However, anecdotally, I never see produce from eastern Europe here in Paris. Non-French usually means Spanish or Netherlands if it's EU, or northern Africa if not. You can mayyybe find son specialty cheese or meat from abroad, but outside the very common Italian varieties and Gouda, it's really not easy to find in regular supermarkets.

However, for some reason, apples from freaking Chile and South Africa seem very common, even in season, although apples grow fine here, including that specific variety (pink lady). And when I do find locally-grown ones, they're usually at the same price.

[t-3]

It's likely that centralized logistics makes even price-competetive local produce unattractive for large retailers. Much easier to deal with one large supplier halfway around the world than hundreds or thousands.

[franciscop]

Sorry if it was not clear, this is about Spain/EU enforcement in Spain vs EU enforcement in Morocco, where we import tons of fruits from. I think it's plenty obvious that the enforcement level will be different at the source.

Edit: I've asked that myself multiple times. There's also some stubbornness there as well TBF.

[LoveMortuus]

>Funny story: he requested a permit to build a well, and ofc it takes forever so he just waited. After 4-5 years waiting, having even forgotten about it, someone called him: "we're here to inspect the well". What well? You haven't given me permission yet. "yes, we know, but people build them anyway before getting permission so we thought you'd do the same".

What happened next? Please continue the story~

[franciscop]

No well was built since there was no permit. That's it, end of the story.

[retired]

Meanwhile nobody bats an eye in Spain if you hire illegal African immigrants, pay them far below minimum wage and house them in shacks without electricity and running water. Places like Almería look like slave towns.

[throwaway2037]

    > but it's been times where there was literally no profit at all for 5+ years.

Why are they still farming? It sounds like an awful crop.

[franciscop]

Because it's fields+trees that have been there for decades, and even if there's no profit few years, it still pays for the salaries of the workers and expenses of maintaining the fields. If you stop it, things die and then it's more expensive to restart.

[verisimi]

Organic food can use organic pesticides.

[Ekaros]

Which might or might not be safer than synthetic ones. Fundamental job of pesticides and herbicides is to kill stuff. Just because it appears in nature does not mean it is safe.

[RetroTechie]

True when talking health of the end consumers.

But "organic" also targets soil health, biodiversity, animal well-being, and the environment in general.

Some synthetic pesticides / herbicides / fungicides hardly break down in the environment. Which leads to accumulation of a cocktail of such chemicals in soil & ground/surface waters. Ultimately appearing everywhere in air, drinking water & food. Not unlike microplastics, PFAS etc. How this affects humans' health is largely unknown.

Generally, chemicals produced by plants also break down naturally. So they don't accumulate in soils over time.

So it's kind of "exclude nature as much as possible, cleanroom style" versus "work with nature to keep things in a healthy balance".

[woadwarrior01]

Do you realize that stimulants like caffeine and nicotine (also the supplement sulforaphane comes to mind) evolved in nature as pesticides?