[canpan]

When buying fridge, washing machine, oven etc, when I moved, I told the sales person, I like quality, am not price sensitive, but any device that requires an app or has a camera/mic built in is out of question. Some didn't know how to handle that, being used to sell it as a "good thing".

[microtonal]

fridge, washing machine, oven etc, [...] Some didn't know how to handle that

I am surprised, all the European brands like Miele, Siemens, Bosch, etc. household appliances work fine without an app. Most that we have now do have an option to connect to WiFi, we never connected them and they all work fine with good old buttons like it's 1985.

[MrGilbert]

There is a dishwasher from Bosch, that misses some features if you are not using the App - cost-cutting measures. Jeff Geerling made a video about that:

https://youtu.be/5M_hmwBBPnc

[microtonal]

Sad. I will check the next time before buying a Bosch product.

Though my main point is, that it is not hard to find products that work fine without an app. E.g. I just checked the Bosch site and could find many models that support delayed start, etc. with on-device buttons. In fact, the one that I picked somewhat randomly, the primary feature the app adds is that you can start the dishwasher remotely, which is the only feature I'd expect to need an app for.

(I completely believe that some of these manufacturers will also have models where they save on on-device buttons/displays by requiring an app.)

[hedora]

It's hard to figure out if a device will work to spec offline.

For instance, our home HVAC shipped with blatant firmware bugs that eat blower fans, lock up compressors, etc, but take a few years to do it and access to the hidden service menu to diagnose.

Eventually, I broke down and put it online to get the firmware update (after a $500-1000 fix "in warranty").

(It's a Bryant.)

[rolandog]

Ah, so the directors and managers that shipped unfinished games in the gaming industry found jobs in the HVAC industry?

[warumdarum]

But bosch is not a regular company, its a foundation.. what incentives could they hsve to make a fire and forget product?

[archi42]

Ugh, we have BSH [Bosch Siemens Group] appliances with wifi, but ours add actual features and don't artificially lock any. Both dryer and washing machine: Remote start, start when energy is cheap, notifications when done or on issues. The dryer can automatically select the program based on the last washing machine program. For the washing machine program I can use the phone to select what I put in there, and it picks a program for me.

However, I can also use the dials much like I did with our old appliances. There is nothing locked out and we actually used them offline for a few weeks (tbh I didn't try setting the finish time using the appliances' controls).

In Jeff's case that's obviously not the case, but there are still options from BSH. As with everything, one has to be careful in what they buy these days. Don't interpret this as victim blaming: I hate that we have to be careful with these traps.

Edit: There are of course alternative manufacturers, but BSH ist a known quantity regarding quality. And when it comes to cloud stuff I trust them a little bit more than other manufacturers; they're actually the only smart thing we own that's not blocked in my OpnSense.

[expedition32]

Dishwashers have been a solved problem for years. Maybe I am weird but at this point I prefer them to have LESS options and just clean the dishes lol. But capitalism needs to keep inventing things to sell.

[brewdad]

I have a Bosch dishwasher that predates the app days. The only setting I use on it is the Extra Dry setting, so that actually requires a button press prior to pressing Start. Otherwise, it's pretty much always on Auto mode.

There are at least a dozen combos I have never used.

[Terr_]

XFinity (Comcast) recently sent my parents a new router, and AFAICT there was no way to configure it from a LAN computer.

It required a damn proprietary phone app, which I assume was bouncing commands through the internet.

[fuzzfactor]

This has been a problem for a while, Xfinity has the high-speed fiber but the only routers they supply were emerging apptrash for a while, then recently got even worse with none or almost none of the features accessible without a phone any more.

Your best option is to purchase your own cable modem/router and quit renting that garbage hardware from Comcast.

Or kick them to the curb and go cableless using Verizon with a router that's worth paying for.

[Scaled]

Same but in my parents case it was even worse -- there is a web portal but it's locked unless you use the app to unlock it. Tried contacting support and they could do nothing. Completely arbitrary requirement. Ended up buying a replacement on Amazon.

[GolfPopper]

I'm not familiar with Comcast's specific hardware, but it also possible that the router is always broadcasting a hidden SSID, or is using Bluetooth for setup and configuration. Both of which are also potentially problematic.

[functionmouse]

don't rent your router

[Terr_]

I was assured many times that it wasn't being charged to them as a recurring cost.

They've been having connection hiccups and blaming the old independent router/modem even though I suspect the problem is somewhere further on.

[sublinear]

The home appliance market is a scam fractal. It goes deeper than just ewaste.

Nobody wants to admit it, but they are more home decor and geewhiz BS than practical appliance for several decades now. You'll be perfectly fine buying cheap barebones models if you are repair savvy. Choosing colors and materials like black or white and stainless steel is "boring", but only if the surrounding space is already ugly.

I've had the same no name amazon special washer and dryer for almost 15 years now. Reviews were 3/5 stars at the time. People complained about belts slipping and hinges breaking. I just fixed them with parts on ebay. They still look and run like new.

[2Gkashmiri]

I have an HP wifi printer, 5820 I think. I haven't signed in to HP, haven't connected the printer to cloud.

Same for anything else. I don't see the whole "oh you need firmware update to improve the product". 90% of the time it just works.

So what happens if the fridge isn't given internet access ? Or washing machine?

[bityard]

Companies are beginning to gate previously existing features behind the requirement to connect their devices to the cloud and/or install an app on your phone.

Dishwashers, refrigerators, even (and perhaps especially) cars.

"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.

[GolfPopper]

>"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.

I feel compelled to quibble with your word choice here. Not connecting appliances to the Internet remains a viable option. It is simply one that is increasingly not common or not readily available.

[subscribed]

I'm confused. This is what they said?

"less viable option as time goes on" is pretty much "remains a viable option, increasingly not common"

?

[GolfPopper]

This may just be me being idiosyncratic with vocabulary.

To me, "less viable" implies there some outside factor or internal failure preventing it from working. But non-internet appliances will continue to work just fine, if you can get one. I.e. it's a viable choice, just one with less and less availability.

[subscribed]

That's interesting, thanks!

[bzzzt]

> I haven't signed in to HP, haven't connected the printer to cloud.

HP fixed a remote exploit a few years back. Theoretically someone could use your local wifi printer to install a persistent backdoor on your network. In practice HP uses updates to patch leaks in their cartridge protection (the most complicated tech in the printers). And accidentally sometimes bricks printers...

[elorant]

Nothing, they just work as intended. I bought a Fujitsu A/C that supposedly required registering through some app. Never connected it, and I removed the wifi kit at installation. Works like a charm no problem whatsoever.

[devsda]

> I like quality, am not price sensitive but any device that requires an app or has a camera/mic built in is out of question

You probably meant "I want no frills product because of its simplicity, not because its cheap" but when that feedback reaches a PM, they'll only hear "I will pay more to not have a camera or a mic".

[kimos]

This is not correct, for me at least.

I want a very good washing machine with frills, but it want it to wash well and quietly without needing to be configured from my phone over wifi.

[ErroneousBosh]

I said that about cars on here and got called all kinds of an idiot for not wanting electrically-operated door handles, an always-on phone connection, and screens bigger than the telly in my living room.

[exe34]

I paid £50 more for a washing machine without wifi/app.