[microtonal]

fridge, washing machine, oven etc, [...] Some didn't know how to handle that

I am surprised, all the European brands like Miele, Siemens, Bosch, etc. household appliances work fine without an app. Most that we have now do have an option to connect to WiFi, we never connected them and they all work fine with good old buttons like it's 1985.

[MrGilbert]

There is a dishwasher from Bosch, that misses some features if you are not using the App - cost-cutting measures. Jeff Geerling made a video about that:

https://youtu.be/5M_hmwBBPnc

[microtonal]

Sad. I will check the next time before buying a Bosch product.

Though my main point is, that it is not hard to find products that work fine without an app. E.g. I just checked the Bosch site and could find many models that support delayed start, etc. with on-device buttons. In fact, the one that I picked somewhat randomly, the primary feature the app adds is that you can start the dishwasher remotely, which is the only feature I'd expect to need an app for.

(I completely believe that some of these manufacturers will also have models where they save on on-device buttons/displays by requiring an app.)

[hedora]

It's hard to figure out if a device will work to spec offline.

For instance, our home HVAC shipped with blatant firmware bugs that eat blower fans, lock up compressors, etc, but take a few years to do it and access to the hidden service menu to diagnose.

Eventually, I broke down and put it online to get the firmware update (after a $500-1000 fix "in warranty").

(It's a Bryant.)

[rolandog]

Ah, so the directors and managers that shipped unfinished games in the gaming industry found jobs in the HVAC industry?

[warumdarum]

But bosch is not a regular company, its a foundation.. what incentives could they hsve to make a fire and forget product?

[archi42]

Ugh, we have BSH [Bosch Siemens Group] appliances with wifi, but ours add actual features and don't artificially lock any. Both dryer and washing machine: Remote start, start when energy is cheap, notifications when done or on issues. The dryer can automatically select the program based on the last washing machine program. For the washing machine program I can use the phone to select what I put in there, and it picks a program for me.

However, I can also use the dials much like I did with our old appliances. There is nothing locked out and we actually used them offline for a few weeks (tbh I didn't try setting the finish time using the appliances' controls).

In Jeff's case that's obviously not the case, but there are still options from BSH. As with everything, one has to be careful in what they buy these days. Don't interpret this as victim blaming: I hate that we have to be careful with these traps.

Edit: There are of course alternative manufacturers, but BSH ist a known quantity regarding quality. And when it comes to cloud stuff I trust them a little bit more than other manufacturers; they're actually the only smart thing we own that's not blocked in my OpnSense.

[expedition32]

Dishwashers have been a solved problem for years. Maybe I am weird but at this point I prefer them to have LESS options and just clean the dishes lol. But capitalism needs to keep inventing things to sell.

[brewdad]

I have a Bosch dishwasher that predates the app days. The only setting I use on it is the Extra Dry setting, so that actually requires a button press prior to pressing Start. Otherwise, it's pretty much always on Auto mode.

There are at least a dozen combos I have never used.