[ZpJuUuNaQ5]

>15 close friends, 50 regular contacts, 150 active acquaintances

Seems like a lot. For me, it's 0 close friends, 0 regular contacts, and 0 active acquaintances. I think I simply never developed any useful social skills which would help me make and keep friends or acquaintances. I wish I had (somehow) kept in touch with at least some people I have met throughout my life. It has never been easier to stay in contact than in all of human history, but no, I had to ghost and ignore everyone and everything. After 29 revolutions around the sun, I have only now started to realize that all that vacuous superiority has led me nowhere. There is only a faint aftertaste of missing out, which sticks to me like tar. I can’t wash it off.

[bitexploder]

Well. Start now. Treat it like an algorithm. Schedule reminders to text/email/call/follow up with people. My ADHD was hard. I would just forget about people and not because I don’t care about them. Then I would feel bad and delay even further because of that. Just do the thing. It may never feel natural except with very close and trusted people. That’s okay. Having friends for the sake of it isn’t the point. Being genuinely interested and sharing experiences and common interests and learning from each other are good reasons though.

[registeredcorn]

> Being genuinely interested and sharing experiences and common interests and learning from each other are good reasons though.

(Not OP, but interested to hear more)

In terms of motivation, do you know of a way to begin a sincere and genuine interest in others that doesn't have some ulterior motivations? That may sound kind of mechanical, but what I mean is roughly something like: "I don't know people, so I do not have any 'genuine interest' in them. As a result, any interest that I do have is insincere."

I chose not to have friends for several decades, which has been extremely convenient for the most part, except for tasks that require more than one person, or work-related situations. Not having to worry about offending people, remembering birthdays, messing up my own plans for the needs of others, etc. was very burdensome. However, being able to use people as a job reference, or getting leads on future opportunities from people I used to work with would also be beneficial so I can understand why people would expend the effort. However, retaining a friendship solely for those job-related purposes seems grossly manipulative because there is no sincerity in what I want from them. I do not want them I only want to extract what they can give to me.

Is it simply understood that, if you make friends with someone as an adult, it is inherently with ulterior motivations in mind, whether it be to avoid loneliness, get work-related benefits, or extract knowledge from them? As a child, I think people tended to make friends simply because they were bored and the person seemed neat. Is that why people still try to make friends with people?

[bitexploder]

A genuine relationship is not transactional. I never expect anything out of a friend, or anyone really. I will simply give them my time, advice, or help because I choose to with zero motivation beyond it making me happy to know I could help someone in some way. I have limits, of course, but I never expect anything in return. It is as simple as that. Some of the time I ask friends for help or they offer it. I don't expect it or do anything in particular to encourage things out of them. A good friendship revolves around the common ground in that space. You like working on cars. You like talking about it and spending time on it. They like the same things. So you spend time on that thing together for no particular reason other than it being more interesting to do with another person.

We live in industrialized society, it is highly dependent on a vast ecosystem of other humans doing specialized jobs. To have a genuine interest you just decide to have one. Why do people choose the hobbies they do. Why this software project over that one. Why do some people like this car or that other car. What motivates people. If you ask people will almost universally be happy to tell you about things they care about. You don't need any particular reason. The fact that you are on HN indicates you at least nominally are interested in others.

I think some rare people genuinely are just happier off in a cabin in the woods, mostly independent of other humans, but we are generally not evolved that way. We simply have a vast amount of chemical and mental machinery dedicated to experiencing life as a social construct and system. Also, having friends to avoid loneliness is that exact machinery we evolved. It isn't required in any logical sense, but in a very real physical sense our bodies and minds reward us for socializing.

[musicale]

> A genuine relationship is not transactional

But helping other people often brings happiness on its own.

[bitexploder]

That is kind of the point. Doing something for no extrinsic reward. It is a part of practicing gratitude and expecting nothing in return (from the other person). If you experience genuine joy or happiness from helping others I think you are doing alright :)

I helped because I could and I wanted to. It makes me happy to help other people. Happy is a loaded word anyway. What is happiness? Some bits of chemicals in our brain? I have trained my reward function to be happy for something it gets no real material or survival benefit from. Maybe it thinks it is getting some benefit in my default mode network. I help people and they will help me? I am sure the DMN sets forth that narrative at some level. But there is a deeper trick to all of it in which I know there is often no survival or conscious narrative benefit. I just did a pro social human thing. Maybe the hormones that generates are enough to convince my DMN to keep doing it? Maybe if you wire your empathy centers deeply enough to experience things through other people you can convince your DMN it is valuable. IDK how it works, I do meditate on it. But mostly it is just about connection and helping people on their journey through life as countless others have helped me. I figure if I end it with having helped others more than I was helped that's a pretty good score. Sort of like the seinfeld quote about driving a porsche: Having the lowest mileage Porsche when reaching heaven signifies a failure to enjoy life, which is considered one of life's greatest sins?

something like that maybe? Who knows. I am going to keep putting help others mileage out there until my time is up, I am very fortunate in this life.

[shimman]

You need to go to therapy and speak to a professional about this. Choosing to not have social connections is a deeply anti-human behavior, we were evolved to be social creatures after all.

Maybe you are truly asocial, but you come across as someone severely stunted emotionally if you think companionship means always extracting value out of someone.

[anthonypasq]

Your primary motivation for having a friend is that you enjoy being with them and talking to them. thats it.

[Nition]

Most people want to spend time with others in the same kind of way they want to eat food or sleep or watch a movie. It just seems to be built in. People who appear to have ulterior motives are treated suspiciously. Some people seem to need a lot more social time than others, but most people desire at least a little bit of human contact.

[DesaiAshu]

You still can. Most people have more and less social periods of their lives. I have plenty of _very_ social friends in their 40s/50s who weren't as social in their 20s. Or the opposite. Life is long, and many of us need decades focused inwards with others focused outwards

[astura]

How, though, If you never developed social skills?

[bonesss]

How to start riding a bicycle in your 40s, if you never developed bike skills? How to snowboard, if you never developed snowboard skills?

… Do it; suck. Do it more; suck less.

“How to Make Friends and Influence People” is a great & classic book about giving people social room, focus, support, and attention with genuineness and humour (“influence” isn’t meant in a manipulative sense). Effort and attention are required, and practice, but that’s the cost of change and improvement.

[astura]

I mean.... Riding a bike is nothing like making friends.

“How to Make Friends and Influence People” is a salesman's guide, Dale Carnegie was an traveling salesman and the book techniques he learned making sales. The techniques you need to be a salesperson is probably not the same techniques to build lasting relationships. These tips are great for brief interactions; they are not for building relationships.

There's a couple of things that need serious caveats -

The "using the person's name" is so well known it's now clocked as exclusively a sleezy sales behavior. Don't do this - you sound like a sleezy salesman.

Asking people endless questions about themselves can really come off as a really weird integration and can be extremely off-putting if not done carefully/correctly and with grace. My mom does this, she asks hundreds of the dumbest most inane questions and she doesn't even listen to the answers to. It's so insufferable that people actively avoid her. I'm sure she read this book and thinks she's a social genius.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2040953/episodes/17943742-how-to-...

"And also, if you think about these tips of smile and try to avoid arguments and greet somebody enthusiastically a lot of these are tips for making somebody like you immediately... They're not tips for ongoing relationships. They're like, when you show up at somebody's door, how can you make a good impression in the first five minutes and establish trust very quickly?"

[Arainach]

Go out, meet people, talk to them. Note what works and what doesn't.

Most friendships are made by doing something that puts you in proximity to the same people repeatedly. Go join (or start) a pickup sports team. Or a reading club. Or a run club. Or hang out at a bar on the same evening each week. Find something that aligns with your interests. Do it with other people. If they invite you to grab dinner or go somewhere afterwards, go along and keep talking.

The goal isn't to interview people.

[fooster]

You are trying to make friends not interview people. The easiest way to make new friends is to engage in a common activity. Sports, hobbies, music, clubs whatever. Join one and see what happens.

[NDlurker]

Get into slacklining. Set up a slackline at a park and people will come.

If you're into music, find out what local/regional bands are in your area and where the small local venues are. Show up a little early and talk to strangers.

Rock climbing isn't for me, but my brother has made a bunch of friends at the local rock climbing gym.

Bird watching clubs are everywhere and you guys can nerd out over different camera setups.

Join a running or cycling club. I've heard the ones around here are very welcoming to people new to the sports.

Table top RPGs are fun. Your local game stores probably have one shot nights where everyone is welcome and noobs are encouraged.

Find some sort of hobby you enjoy and find others who want to nerd out over it

[fullstop]

.. and it's okay to be the one to start a conversation.

[aziaziazi]

> These tips [...] are not for building relationships

These tips gots me friends and girlfriends, one of her lasted 11years and still counting. Before reading it I'd describe myself 95% asocial + 5% weirdly social, with mostly no relationships.

These book really deeply changed me and oh boy I'm far from a salesman.

Your mom and robotic salesman obviously aren't good exemple to follow and that's a great start you noticed it. Get courage, one week of reading and I promise you you'll be changed, my friend.

[bonesss]

> Riding a bike is nothing like making friends.

Riding a bike is exactly like making friends. Lifestyle is lifestyle. If your aim is to be a regular and obvious “rider” it is not like the parable about skills returning quickly when tried, it is the practice, dedication, investment, improvement, and risk taking to <ahem> get the eff of the effing couch and bike the eff around. The is/ought dilemma tells us philosophically that bitching cannot become biking.

It’s a lifestyle. Biking to work, being a bike guy, VO2Max watches and rust and replacement bikes … time, effort, and money. Ironically, if you are into that sort of thing, that’s the friendship hack: do it same time same place for a week or two, and if there’s another nerd doing the same say hi, crack a joke. Do that 5x then ask if they like beer… … friendship acquired.

> [misinterpreting Dale Carnegie to be defeatist]

You are flat wrong, and not listening to him.

I am shite with names, palpably. But I can say that, and ask. Whassitagain? Oh, thank you, Astura, I appreciate the clarification. I am sorry your mom is awkward, mine is too. That’s why I always make sure to only ask things I care about, and listen to the answers like the other person matters as much as I do.

You are correct, interrogations are not conversations. But answers are loaded with interests, conversational retorts, too. So you ask, listen, comment, listen, and if you find common ground (of interest to talk, not fact), well… that’s half a friend.

Trying to avoid arguments and being enthusiastic about someone’s presence are good tips for a good impression. The thesis that seeking legitimate arguments (not teasing, banter, ball-busting, or flirty disagreement), and being annoyed or put upon by someone else’s presence are good for long term friendship needs some work.

Yes, yes, yes: get in ‘the door’, make a great first impression, and establish trust quickly. Don’t breach that trust, keep making positive genuine interactions and … well the word for that is ‘friend’.

Try it. Work it like you have a brain. Other people’s cliches are their problem. Friendship is selling yourself and showing up.

[randusername]

Find ways to lower the stakes.

Make new friends with others that have underdeveloped social skills and figure it out together.

Do things in a group in some activity that won't put the spotlight directly on you and where you can observe others.

Explore therapy where odds of rejection are pretty low since you're paying them for coaching.

I think noticing how children play is very instructive, but if you don't have good social awareness that could get you in trouble. Kids haven't internalized all the baggage you and I might have about social rejection and awkwardness yet. They just confidently say "hey I like your bracelets will you tell me what they mean to you?" and if it doesn't pan out this time they play with someone else. It's the social anxiety / awkwardness that usually makes people the most uncomfortable, not the atypical interactions. Kids don't have that at all.

[fullstop]

I help my neighbors out a few days a week, and walk their kids down to the bus stop and make sure that they get off to school okay. There's a bunch of kids at the bus stop, and I know them all pretty well by this point.

The one little girl is black and has very tightly curled hair. Every few weeks she has it done up differently, with different colored beads, etc. I make sure to pay attention to when it changes so that I can tell her that it looks amazing, and she gets a huge smile on her face every time. It's often the highlight of my morning, and I truly hope that she heads off to school with more spring in her step.

Adults aren't much different -- they also like to receive compliments. Give out compliments as you see fit and soon you'll have something in common to talk about.

[psvv]

I like classes for meeting new people for a few reasons. First, there's a structure around the activity which doesn't force you interact all the time. Second, you're not entering an established group as the one new person. And third, you're all going through a shared experience which naturally helps form bonds.

If you're really hard up for social skills, and you like being around silly fun people and are okay acting silly yourself, I recommend taking an improv class. Any introductory improv class is basically kindergarten games to help you realize how low stakes socializing can be.

But I also realize improv isn't for everyone. In that case I recommend finding an activity you might be interested in and taking a class in it. If you aren't sure what you're interested in, good news! That means you get to take all the classes until you find one you like.

Even if there's no classes for your activity, anything that can be done out of the house and with other people probably has a community built around it. Use your interest in the activity as leverage to expose yourself to that community.

[gedy]

It's one of those things: the world doesn't care (unless you are really attractive of course), so you'll have to choose: Do I want to put even more effort into this and/or fake it 'til you make it - or do I want to be alone?

[forlorn_mammoth]

https://www.empathiceurope.com/ has free courses/trainings on empathic listening skills.

Spend some time on that website, see what you can dig up on specific skills, and then test using them in real life.

That site skews heavily towards therapists, and has a lot of woo-woo. It is clearly not THE answer.

But it is A answer. Enough to give you a framework to get started.

[myst]

Doing it late(r) only adds to the pain of missing out before.

[vladms]

Just because you enjoy a thing at a certain time in your life, doesn't mean necessarily that you would or could have enjoyed a similar thing earlier.

Besides, social interactions are one of those things that don't depend exclusively on you but also on the environment and on luck. I had better and worse periods, I doubt I could have had only "great periods". Going through periods is how you also learn and get to put some effort to change (the environment and yourself).

[sublinear]

In the grand scheme, it's very difficult to miss out on anything.

Taking phrases like "when you're ready" as a condescending insult or ego challenge is a stronger guarantee of pain than simply doing nothing. Your own expectations and misguided impressions are most of the pain.

There are plenty of bitter and unhappy people who got that way by being delusional. Misjudging one's own experiences and accomplishments is what it really means to "miss out".

[Gigachad]

My advice is to go somewhere in person and to keep going there consistently. It could be a club, a meetup, volunteering, etc.

The internet is the fast food of socialising. While it might be quick and easy, the quality is terrible. You’ll make real life long friends just being in the same room as someone regularly and chatting face to face.

[rabarbra]

I'm in a similar situation — 0 friends, 0 regular contacts, 0 significant others in general (though maybe I'm less worried about that than the original poster). So, I have no chats to analyze. What you offer doesn't work for me. I studied onsite at 2 universities and have 0 contacts/friends from there. I've now been studying for 3 years at an onsite school (I'm there every evening after work and on weekends) — 0 contacts/friends. I moderated a support group weekly for 3 years — 0 contacts/friends. I worked at 4 non-remote jobs, at least 2 years each — 0 contacts/friends.

[palmotea]

> I studied onsite at 2 universities and have 0 contacts/friends from there.

IIRC, it's harder than high school to make friends at a university. It's bigger and more anonymous, and outside of student housing there's less free time where students are forced together.

My high school class wasn't too much larger than Dunbar's number (300), and you were getting mixed up with the same kids for 6 hours straight for 6 years.

My university wasn't even that large, and I think there were ~>3,000 kids in my year and plenty enough in my major that it wasn't uncommon (without deliberate effort) to have zero overlap from semester to semester.

[sublinear]

That's a really strong signal you are either being too picky or focused on yourself. This isn't necessarily "bad", just an observation. Sometimes the environments you put yourself in lack the spark.

[fullstop]

You're not going to make friends by studying. Hard pill to swallow, but you have to make an effort to talk to people and get to know them. Go out to lunch with them.

If you're eating alone at your desk, you are signaling that you wish to be left alone.

[mgh2]

This largely depends on luck, though it can improve your chances. There are places where you can be a regular your entire life and never meet a meaningful person, while at other times, simply being in the right place at the right time can lead you to someone with whom you develop a lifelong relationship.

[wholinator2]

Yes, it does have a component of luck. But it also has a component that's not luck, namely the showing up part. Of course there's no "friend solution" and i wouldn't go looking for friends by sitting in the corner of a cafe on my laptop all day. But i bet going to a makerspace, or a hobby meet, is basically guaranteed to make friends within 1 to 3 months of attendance. So don't let the doubt prevent you from going. There's only one way out and it's to start showing up

[mgh2]

Of course you have to be proactive, but even then, people for any reason, might not be open to connect - language, culture, clique, personality, etc. You just have to find the tribe you vibe with, and that is mostly luck.

[cloche]

I'm the same as the parent. I've done this. I've been in groups for 2+ years and attend regularly and am not able to get any close friends out of it. I just don't form the connections that other people do. There's just something about the way I interact that doesn't cause me to get close to people. It might be something I'm doing subconsciously and I just don't know what it is. It's not like people can't stand me or anything. There's many people I can interact with normally at work or whatnot. I just don't seem to "click" with people. If anyone knows a coach or course that helps to address this, I would be interested.

[F3nd0]

The internet offers less means to bond (mostly a subset of what you get in real life), but the quality most definitely does not have to be terrible. The relationships you form over long distance have potential to be as strong as those you form in person, even if building them up is significantly more difficult.

[latexr]

> There is only a faint aftertaste of missing out, which sticks to me like tar. I can’t wash it off.

Sure you can. There are various paths to it, some outlined in sibling comments, and here’s another one: Pick up the phone and call or text some of those people you wish you had kept in contact with. Don’t have their contacts anymore? Ask someone who might or find them on social media. What do you say to them? “Hey, I was recently thinking of <that time you did something together> and felt like reaching out. How have you been doing?”.

Maybe beforehand “collect” some relevant events which have happened to your life since you last met, so you have something at the ready to keep the conversation going if you need. I’m not saying rehearse it, just have them in mind. If you need some small talk tips, see this short video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRG-YubP1rw

[amon_spek]

Volunteering to help the vulnerable (in person) helped me with the vacuous superiority. I met some amazing people who just had bad luck. Your post shows you're on the right track and might be ready to make the next step.

[norome]

You said it yourself, you never developed the skills. there's a learning curve, but learnable skills they are. You need the courage to start developing a skill that you're completely incompetent in, and just do one thing each day. I was in the same place as you at 32 but four years later It's another story.

[astura]

How?

[throwfish3000]

I avoided people because I was treated badly. Once I got muscles people started laughing at my jokes and treating me well. Working out is the only thing that helped me.

[throw4847285]

Just to say the obvious, but gaining muscles gave you confidence. People aren't laughing at your jokes more because you're swole. I mean, I'm sure there is some of that. But with any virtuous cycle, it's never just one thing that makes a positive change. It's a reinforcing loop.

[jodrellblank]

Literally any way.

If you're nearly a professional athlete then "how do I improve?" has very few answers that could help, and many ways that won't, but if you're a couch potato then anything is better than nothing. Any movement or club, from walking to bodyweight exercise, community hall dance group, exercise bike, treadmill, gym club spin class, climbing gym, Starting Strength, Couch to 5K running podcasts, Pilates, Yoga, Martial Arts, frisbee, volunteering to walk dogs - anything at all is an improvement.

Any book, blog, video, article, about developing social skills will have some ideas and approaches. Asking anyone - family member, counsellor, therapist, doctor, coworker, stranger in the street - for ideas could give you some. Take anything other people do and google "how do I learn that?" and try some of the suggestions.

Charisma On Command channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Charismaoncommand/videos

Harvard Business Review on enjoying smalltalk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRG-YubP1rw

Dr Burns on empathic communication: https://feelinggood.com/2016/12/12/014-the-five-secrets-of-e...

Dr Burns on stop trying to "be somebody" and dare to be Average: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz_Iw3JLCb0

Dr Burns on stopping criticising yourself with "I should XYZ" to everything you do or don't do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Zl12LS3bg

anything on improving your fashion, haircut, body language, giving genuine compliments, making people feel happier around you, helping interactions feel fun and less like a competition you have to win, how to start conversations, how to keep conversations going, how jokes work, some jokes to memorise.

Imagine all the "how do I learn programming?" posts on the internet, if you want to make a 100fps 3D game in C++ there's only a few useful ideas, if you want to "learn programming" it does not matter what language, computer, IDE, editor, book, article, video, tutorial, you start with. Anything is more progress than doing nothing.

[lowercased]

Perhaps the name "ZpJuUuNaQ5" makes it harder for people to be able to do casual chit chat and introduce you to their friends?

[latexr]

I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume that’s not their real name. But if it is, it would make it easier to strike up conversations. “What an unusual name. How do you pronounce it, again? How’s that spelled? What’s the story behind it?”

[eddieroger]

> Hey, Z, how's it going?

People have had "weird" or out of the norm nicknames forever. Where do you think nicknames come from?

[thisisauserid]

Taking a look at your past comments, I agree with you about you curating "vacuous superiority."

That kind of self insight is valuable.

So maybe, ya know, stop pretending on the internet that you have things figured out?

[geodel]

Many will tell otherwise, but I think it is fine to not have these friends, contacts and acquaintances etc. In my case I did put in effort to stay in touch, call up people after many years. But in most cases result was like "Okay, we were in same school/office/rpoject/neighborhood / waited for same bus etc...etc.. now what do you want from me?"

It maybe that you most definitely want it. However for me "missing out" hasn't make life any worse.

[subtlejellyfish]

For what it's worth, it's never too late to keep in touch. You said you wish you'd kept in touch, if you're able, you should reach out. No one cares that its been awhile (and they're equally culpable), most people are happy and/or flattered you were thinking of them.

[ge96]

Funny I go out a lot and I have so many random numbers in my phone from dudes who added me, single serving friends for the night

But yeah I only have like 5 real friends and then maybe 10 acquaintances eg. work

[chinathrow]

> I have only now started to realize that all that vacuous superiority has led me nowhere

It's not too late, but it might need more effort than if earlier.

[jdw64]

Sounds good, let's be friends! Feel free to email me anytime, and I look forward to us staying in touch.

[arrowsmith]

29 isn't remotely close to too late, dude.

[sureMan6]

You have to find people you value, then it'll feel worth it

[fullstop]

You're only 29 -- I have good friends in my life that I didn't meet until I was in my 40s.

You might need some hobbies which are more social, like volunteering. It's very easy to fall into work -> hacking at stuff -> sleep cycle, but you can't live inside your own head for the rest of your days.

I'm older and I've lived through the analog era, before people had cell phones or internet. Facebook wasn't around when I graduated from college, so most contacts from before that withered away -- especially if you ended up living in a different state or city.

It is sometimes heart wrenching to hear about people from your past, knowing that you didn't keep in touch. A girl that I went to elementary school with, always kind of an odd girl (but in a good way), developed leukemia in her 30s and passed away in 2019. I didn't know for seven years. Seven! I went through her Facebook page and it was a roller-coaster of emotions, playing her life backward as she chronicled her condition worsening, periods of hope, all the way back to when she was saying that she had some kind of bug and felt awful.

She was a good friend to me in elementary school, but we ended up going to different high schools and different directions after that. I feel bad that we didn't keep in touch, and that I was completely unaware of her suffering.

I can't wallow in this, though, and this is where I'm attempting (maybe poorly) to make a connection to your situation. You can't change the past, but you can start making meaningful attempts to forge new relationships and to rekindle old ones. Those people that you never kept in touch with? Reach out to them, if only to say "Hi". Reach out because you want to do it, and not because you need something.

How many days will you sit there and think "why doesn't anyone reach out to me?" when you, yourself, are not also making the effort to do so?

[dan-bailey]

Dude, you can still recover some of those friendships. I went through a phase during college where I alienated a TON of my friends, and that was on me. For a variety of reasons we don't need to expound upon here. I eventually reached out to them, made my apologies, and would occasionally check in and see how they were doing. A few of those friendships are repaired and growing again. I think that there's a tendency toward second chance for people who've recognized their shortcomings, worked on them, and then taken responsibility for their actions.

[dangsbrother]

Zero follow ups. The perfect bait.

[vovavili]

That is the saddest thing I have read on this website.

[throwfish3000]

I know it seems stupid, but hit the gym. People will want to be around you if you have muscles.

[rhines]

There's some truth to this, and I'm sorry it's been your experience, but I'd like to gently expand on this a bit as I don't think muscles are the only thing that matter - I know plenty of skinny and fat people with friends.

Relationships are inherently transactional. You won't want to spend time with someone if you don't get something out of it, barring certain unconditional loves like your immediate family. When making new friends, proxies like attractiveness and social standing are how people judge if someone is likely to add value to their lives or not.

So yes, unfortunately, if you talk to someone and you're just some small quiet guy with no interesting characteristics, you'll probably be written off before you get a chance to develop a friendship with them. Whereas if they see you have muscles, or know you're successful in your career, or know you have other friends, they'll be more likely to assume you might be worth getting to know.

Things like working out, dressing well, learning to speak well, etc. all help. However, there is an alternative shortcut to building close friendships - forced interaction. When you're stuck sitting next to someone in class for a year, you don't have the privilege of swapping that person out for someone who seems cooler, you just have to get to know them. When you're stationed in the military with a squad you don't get to swap that squad out for people you think you might like more, you just bond with them. But there are few opportunities like that in normal life, you have to seek them out. Go on a 2 week long canoeing expedition, join a start-up incubator with a small team, play an MMO at a competitive level where you have scheduled runs and are in voice chat. Do stuff that forces you to interact with people for a long time and puts you in environments where you can't just leave and seek out people more like you.

[latexr]

You’ve crafted a well-meaning response, so I want to preface this by saying I’m not poo-pooing on your response at all. Rather, I want to share some other complementary views.

> barring certain unconditional loves like your immediate family.

I’d argue your immediately family isn’t deserving of unconditional love. Unfortunately, familial relationships can be much more toxic than other relationships precisely because you feel an obligation to make a bigger effort to not sever them. But if they’re bad and you’ve done a real effort towards reconciliation and failed, you should cut them out for your own sanity.

I have friends for whom I care much more than family.

> Whereas if they see you have muscles, (…) dressing well

Careful, as those are not universal. Placing too much emphasis on physical appearance can have the opposite effect and make other people preemptively judge you negatively.

[rhines]

Good points, I definitely generalized and you raise important distinctions. I think in general the unconditionality of familial love extends more towards your dependents rather than your parents/siblings - if you dislike your child, it's really your responsibility to raise them better, rather than just abandoning them. But if you have abusive parents or a toxic sibling, you should prioritize your health and happiness.

And it's also true that certain sub-cultures will judge you differently. Like if you're all beefed up and dressed in a suit, you're probably not getting an invite to Dungeons and Dragons club. I would say in general following your country's norms for attractiveness will result in more social success but if you present yourself inauthentically you certainly can end up attracting people you actually don't want to associate with.

[the_af]

> Careful, as those are not universal. Placing too much emphasis on physical appearance can have the opposite effect and make other people preemptively judge you negatively.

Yup. To me, a muscled/fitness-type guy who seems to care too much about his appearance is a turn-off, I'd be unlikely to seek friendship. It signals to me "we share very little in common". Which, to be clear, is a prejudice, but if we're discussing physical appearance, that's what this is about.

Also, something similar happens with (some, not all!) guys being afraid to approach very attractive women because they seem out of their league. And the same must happen to some women.

[latexr]

People will want to be around you if you’re kind and generally pleasant, which is a much stronger reason to hang out with someone and leads to much longer lasting and healthier bonds than a physical trait. It also costs nothing and once you can get into that mindset, takes no effort.

[throwfish3000]

I've always been nice and pleasant, but from my analysis, people thought that was weakness. Weak + Nice = Uncool, Strong + Nice = Cool.

[latexr]

It saddens me that has been your experience. I’d argue people who see kindness as a weakness are not people one would want to be around.