[pacman128]

In a chat bot coding world, how do we ever progress to new technologies? The AI has been trained on numerous people's previous work. If there is no prior art, for say a new language or framework, the AI models will struggle. How will the vast amounts of new training data they require ever be generated if there is not a critical mass of developers?

[justonceokay]

Most art forms do not have a wildly changing landscape of materials and mediums. In software we are seeing things slow down in terms of tooling changes because the value provided by computers is becoming more clear and less reliant on specific technologies.

I figure that all this AI coding might free us from NIH syndrome and reinventing relational databases for the 10th time, etc.

[sd9]

LLMs are very much NIH machines

[ffsm8]

i'd go one step further, they're going to turbo charge the NIH syndrome and treat every code file as a seperate "here"

[j_bum]

For others like me who know “NIH” to be “National Institutes of Health”…

“NIH” here refers to “Not Invented Here” Syndrome, or a bias against things developed externally.

[coldtea]

Basically not wanting to use dependencies or frameworks from outside the company or team.

[protocolture]

See I thought they were the same thing, considering the Queensland Health payroll database issues, I assumed someone coined the term assuming it would clobber Health acronyms.

[clayhacks]

Yeah it’s gonna make the bar for good enough here super easy to meet and people will have less reasons to look around outside

[realusername]

The bar to create the new X framework has just been lowered so I expect the opposite, even more churn.

[marcus_holmes]

All frameworks make some assumptions and therefore have some constraints. There was always a well-understood trade-off when using frameworks of speeding up early development but slowing down later development as the system encountered the constraints.

LLMs remove the time problem (to an extent) and have more problems around understanding the constraints imposed by the framework. The trade-off is less worth it now.

I have stopped using frameworks completely when writing systems with an LLM. I always tell it to use the base language with as few dependencies as possible.

[LtWorf]

If you are doing js, that makes sense since all the frameworks are a mess anyway.

[justonceokay]

Yes but no AI will know how to use your new framework so it will not get adopted

[chaghalibaghali]

This was one of my predictions in https://thomshutt.com/2026/03/17/predictions/ - fiddling around with creating new languages and lower level tooling becomes less rewarding versus figuring out what we can get agents to build on top of the existing ones

[kstrauser]

That’s factually untrue. I’m using models to work on frameworks with nearly zero preexisting examples to train on, doing things no one’s ever done with them, and I know this because I ecosystem around these young frameworks.

Models can RTFM (and code) and do novel things, demonstrably so.

[coldtea]

>I’m using models to work on frameworks with nearly zero preexisting examples to train on

Zero preexisting examples of your particular frameworks.

Huge number of examples of similar existing frameworks and code patterns in their training set though.

Still not a novel thing in any meaningful way, not any more than someone who has coded in dozens of established web frameworks, can write against an unfamiliar to them framework homegrown at his new employer.

[thunky]

> Still not a novel thing in any meaningful way

Right. What you're saying is that barely anyone is doing truly novel work. 100% agree.

[coldtea]

Almost no e.g. web or app or enterprise or even game developer is doing any novel work, does that come as a surprise?

And is that fact supposed to be an argument in favor of how LLMs can do novel work and move the state of the art (which is what we're arguing about).

I mean, "LLMs can do novel work because: barely anyone is doing truly novel work" doesn't really compute as an argument.

[thunky]

What I'm saying is that LLMs don't have to do truly novel work in order to be useful. They are useful because the lion's share of all work is a variation on an existing theme (even if the creator may not realize it).

[kstrauser]

I'm not talking about web frameworks. I'm talking about other frontiers with darn near zero preexisting examples, and no code samples to borrow from in any language or in any similar framework (because there is no such thing).

"LLMs can only emit things they've been trained on" is wholly obsolete.

[coldtea]

>I'm not talking about web frameworks. I'm talking about other frontiers

Such as what?

>with darn near zero preexisting examples

Whatever it is, you'd be surprised.

[allthetime]

Yeah. I work with bleeding edge zig. If you just ask Claude to write you a working tcp server with the new Io api, it doesn’t have any idea what it’s doing and the code doesn’t compile. But if you give it some minimal code examples, point it to the recent blog posts about it, and paste in relevant points from std it does incredibly well and produce code that it has not been trained on.

[SV_BubbleTime]

It’s always been about context, then being able to communicate it.

Manager people or managing a hyper-knowledgeable intern (LLM). If you know what you need, actually want what you want (super difficult), and have the ability to provide context to someone else… management has always been easier for you than others.

I find one of the more interesting things about the current “AI debate” is that many programmers are autistic or at least close one side of an empathetic spectrum that they’ve always had trouble communicating what is needed for a task and why. So it’s hard for me to take the opinions going around.

[qweiopqweiop]

It also needs a validation loop. Give it the compiler output and I bet it would fix that code even without examples/a blog post.

[storus]

There is even a bigger problem; if AI didn't see your framework, you don't exist. Soon AI companies will be asking for money from devs to include their frameworks in the training dataset. Worse than Google's SEO that could at least be gamed somewhat.

[thinkindie]

I don't think people discovered frameworks with Google, nor they are going to do so with LLMs. It might be a different topic for libraries.

[storus]

If no coding agent offers your framework as a choice for code generation, your framework might not even exist, you'd get the same outcome.

[derrak]

Maybe you’re right about modern LLMs. But you seem to be making an unstated assumption: “there is something special about humans that allow them to create new things and computers don’t have this thing.”

Maybe you can’t teach current LLM backed systems new tricks. But do we have reason to believe that no AI system can synthesize novel technologies. What reason do you have to believe humans are special in this regard?

[adamiscool8]

After thousands of years of research we still don’t fully understand how humans do it, so what reason (besides a sort of naked techno-optimism) is there to believe we will ever be able to replicate the behavior in machines?

[coldtea]

Well, understanding how it works is not a prerequisite to being able to do it.

People have been doing thigs millenia before they understood them. Did primitive people understood the mechanism behind which certain medicinal plants worked in the body, or just saw that when they e.g. boil them and consume them they have a certain effect?

[stravant]

Thousands of years?

We've only had the tech to be able to research this in some technical depth for a few decades (both scale of computation and genetics / imaging techniques).

[thesz]

And then we discover that DNA in (not only brain) cells are ideal quantum computers, DNA's reactions generate coherent light (as in lasers) used to communicate between cells and single dendrite of cerebral cortex' neuron can compute at the very least a XOR function which requires at least 9 coefficients and one hidden layer. Neurons have from one-two to dozens of thousands of dendrites.

Even skin cells exchange information in neuron-like manner, including using light, albeit thousands times slower.

This switches complexity of human brain to "86 billions quantum computers operating thousands of small neural networks, exchanging information by lasers-based optical channels."

[derrak]

The Church-Turing thesis comes to mind. It would at least suggest that humans aren’t capable of doing anything computationally beyond what can be instantiated in software and hardware.

But sure, instantiating these capabilities in hardware and software are beyond our current abilities. It seems likely that it is possible though, even if we don’t know how to do it yet.

[sophrosyne42]

The church turing thesis is about following well-defined rules. It is not about the system that creates or decides to follow or not follow such rules. Such a system (the human mind) must exist for rules to be followed, yet that system must be outside mere rule-following since it embodies a function which does not exist in rule-following itself, e.g., the faculty of deciding what rules are to be followed.

[derrak]

We can keep our discussion about church turing here if you want.

I will argue that the following capacities: 1. creating rules and 2. deciding to follow rules (or not) are themselves controlled by rules.

[Verdex]

Church turing is about computable functions. Uncomputable functions exist.

For example how much rain is going to be in the rain gauge after a storm is uncomputable. You can hook up a sensor to perform some action when the rain gets so high. This rain algorithm is outside of anything church turing has to say.

There are many other natural processes that are outside the realm of was is computable. People are bathed in them.

Church turing suggests only what people can do when constrained to a bunch of symbols and squares.

[ben_w]

That example is completely false: how much rain will fall is absolutely a computable function, just a very difficult and expensive function to evaluate with absurdly large boundary conditions.

This is in the same sense that while it is technically correct to describe all physically instantiated computer programs, and by extension all AI, as being in the set of "things which are just Markov chains", it comes with a massive cost that may or may not be physically realisable within this universe.

Rainfall to the exact number of molecules is computable. Just hard. A quantum simulation of every protein folding and every electron energy level of every atom inside every cell of your brain on a classical computer is computable, in the Church-Turing sense, just with an exponential slowdown.

The busy beaver function, however, is actually un-computable.

[Verdex]

The busy beaver function isn't uncomputable.

You just compute the brains of a bunch of immortal mathematics. At which point it's "very difficult and expensive function to evaluate with absurdly large boundary conditions."

[ben_w]

That humans come in various degrees of competence at this rather than an, ahem, boolean have/don't have; plus how we can already do a bad approximation of it, in a field whose rapid improvements hint that there is still a lot of low-hanging fruit, is a reason for techno-optimism.

[analog31]

>>> But do we have reason to believe that no AI system can synthesize novel technologies

We don’t even know if they want to. But in general, it’s impossible to conclusively prove that something won’t ever happen in the future.

[parpfish]

Something I think about frequently is that 20 years ago, there weren’t machines that could do visual object recognition/categorization and we didn’t really have a clue how humans did it either. We knew that neuron built fancier and fancier receptive fields that became “feature detectors”, but h the ere was a sense of “is that all it takes? There has to be something more sophisticated in order to handle illumination changes of out of plane rotation?”

But then we got a neural wr that was big enough and it turns out that feedforward receptive fields ARE enough. We don’t know whether this is how our brains do it, but it’s a humbling moment to realize that you just overthought how complex the problem was.

So ive become skeptical when people start claiming that some class of problem is fundamentally too hard for machines.

[slopinthebag]

Are modern visual recognition & categorisation systems comparable to human capabilities? From what I can tell, they aren't even close (although still impressive!).

[LtWorf]

They aren't, or capchas wouldn't be a thing any longer.

[somewhereoutth]

In the grand scale of things, a computer is not much more than a fancy brick. Certainly it is much closer to a brick than to a human. So the question is more 'why should this particularly fancy brick have abilities that so far we have only encountered in humans?'

[derrak]

> Certainly it is much closer to a brick than to a human.

I disagree with this premise. A computer approximates a Turing Machine, which puts it far above a brick.

[somewhereoutth]

but still so so much further to go until you reach human.

[djeastm]

> fancy brick

If we're going to be reductionist we can just call humans "meat sacks" and flip the question around entirely.

[danaris]

That's irrelevant.

The claim being made is not "no computer will ever be able to adapt to and assist us with new technologies as they come out."

The claim being made is "modern LLMs cannot adapt to and assist us with new technologies until there is a large corpus of training data for those technologies."

Today, there exists no AI or similar system that can do what is being described. There is also no credible way forward from what we have to such a system.

Until and unless that changes, either humans are special in this way, or it doesn't matter whether humans are special in this way, depending on how you prefer to look at it.

[derrak]

Note that I prefaced my comment by saying the parent might be right about LLMs.

> That's irrelevant.

My comment was relevant, if a bit tangential.

Edit: I also want to say that our attitude toward machine vs. human intelligence does matter today because we’re going to kneecap ourselves if we incorrectly believe there is something special about humans. It will stop us from closing that gap.

[sophrosyne42]

Its not an assumption, it is a fact about how computers function today. LLMs interpolate, they do not extrapolate. Nobody has shown a method to get them to extrapolate. The insistence to the contrary involves an unstated assumption that technological progress towards human-like intelligence is in principle possible. In reality, we do not know.

[derrak]

As long as agnosticism is the attitude, that’s fine. But we shouldn’t let mythology about human intelligence/computational capacity stop us from making progress toward that end.

> unstated assumption that technological progress towards human-like intelligence is in principle possible. In reality, we do not know.

For me this isn’t an assumption, it’s a corollary that follows from the Church-Turing thesis.

[sarchertech]

That certainly doesn’t follow from the Church-Turing thesis because the Church Turing thesis doesn’t demonstrate that human intelligence is computational. That it is still an unstated assumption.

[derrak]

Noted, thanks.

I don’t know what non-computational intelligence would look like but I guess I’ll keep my mind open.

[jedberg]

People are doing this now. It's basically what skills.sh and its ilk are for -- to teach AIs how to do new things.

For example, my company makes a new framework, and we have a skill we can point an agent at. Using that skill, it can one-shot fairly complicated code using our framework.

The skill itself is pretty much just the documentation and some code examples.

[majormajor]

Isn't the "skill" just stuff that gets put into the context? Usually with a level of indirection like "look at this file in this situation"?

How long can you keep adding novel things into the start of every session's context and get good performance, before it loses track of which parts of that context are relevant to what tasks?

IMO for working on large codebases sticking to "what the out of the box training does" is going to scale better for larger amounts of business logic than creating ever-more not-in-model-training context that has to be bootstrapped on every task. Every "here's an example to think about" is taking away from space that could be used by "here is the specific code I want modified."

The sort of framework you mention in a different reply - "No, it was created by our team of engineers over the last three years based on years of previous PhD research." - is likely a bit special, if you gain a lot of expressibility for the up-front cost, but this is very much not the common situation for in-house framework development, and could likely get even more rare over time with current trends.

[jedberg]

> Isn't the "skill" just stuff that gets put into the context? Usually with a level of indirection like "look at this file in this situation"?

Today, yes. I assume in the future it will be integrated differently, maybe we'll have JIT fine-tuning. This is where the innovation for the foundation model providers will come in -- figuring out how to quickly add new knowledge to the model.

Or maybe we'll have lots of small fine tuned models. But the point is, we have ways today to "teach" models about new things. Those ways will get better. Just like we have ways to teach humans new things, and we get better at that too.

A human seeing a new programming language still has to apply previous knowledge of other programming languages to the problem before they can really understand it. We're making LLMs do the same thing.

[andrei_says_]

The question is, who made the new framework? Was it vibe coded by someone who does not understand its code?

[jedberg]

No, it was created by our team of engineers over the last three years based on years of previous PhD research.

[NewJazz]

A framework is different than a paradigm shift or new language.

[jedberg]

Yes and no. How does a human learn a new language? They use their previous experience and the documentation to learn it. Oftentimes they way someone learns a new language is they take something in an old language and rewrite it.

LLMs are really good at doing that. Arguably better than humans at RTFM and then applying what's there.

[NewJazz]

And LLMs will get retrained eventually. So writing one good spec and a great harness (or multiple) might be enough, eventually.

[CamperBob2]

In a chat bot coding world, how do we ever progress to new technologies?

Funny, I'd say the same thing about traditional programming.

Someone from K&R's group at Bell Labs, straight out of 1972, would have no problem recognizing my day-to-day workflow. I fire up a text editor, edit some C code, compile it, and run it. Lather, rinse, repeat, all by hand.

That's not OK. That's not the way this industry was ever supposed to evolve, doing the same old things the same old way for 50+ years. It's time for a real paradigm shift, and that's what we're seeing now.

All of the code that will ever need to be written already has been. It just needs to be refactored, reorganized, and repurposed, and that's a robot's job if there ever was one.

[badc0ffee]

You're probably using an IDE that checks your syntax as you type, highlighting keywords and surfacing compiler warnings and errors in real time. Autocomplete fills out structs for you. You can hover to get the definition of a type or a function prototype, or you can click and dig in to the implementation. You have multiple files open, multiple projects, even.

Not to mention you're probably also using source control, committing code and switching between branches. You have unit tests and CI.

Let's not pretend the C developer experience is what it was 30 years ago, let alone 50.

[CamperBob2]

I disagree that any of those things are even slightly material to the topic. It's like saying my car is fundamentally different from a 1972 model because it has ABS, airbags, and a satnav.

Reply due to rate limiting:

K&R didn't know about CI/CD, but everything else you mention has either existed for over 30 years or is too trivial to argue about.

Conversely, if you took Claude Code or similar tools back to 1996, they would grab a crucifix and scream for an exorcist.

[badc0ffee]

You said C developers are doing things the "same old way" as always.

I think you're taking for granted the massive productivity boost that happened even before today's era of LLM agents.

[sophrosyne42]

If all problems were solved, we should have already found a paradise without anything to want for. Your editing workflow being the similar to another for a 1970s era language does not have any relevance to that question.

[CamperBob2]

If all problems were solved

Now that's extrapolation of the sort that, as you point out elsewhere, no LLM can perform.

At least, not one without serious bugs.

[bitwize]

We were almost there, back in the 80s.

A vice president at Symbolics, the Lisp machine company at their peak during the first AI hype cycle, once stated that it was the company's goal to put very large enterprise systems within the reach of small teams to develop, and anything smaller within the reach of a single person.

And had we learned the lessons of Lisp, we could have done it. But we live in the worst timeline where we offset the work saved with ever worse processes and abstractions. Hell, to your point, we've added static edit-compile-run cycles to dynamic, somewhat Lisp-like languages (JavaScript)! And today we cry out "Save us, O machines! Save us from the slop we produced that threatens to make software development a near-impossible, frustrating, expensive process!" And the machines answer our cry by generating more slop.

[slopinthebag]

That's your fault for still writing C in Ed :P

But I do broadly agree that we still write code for a lot of shit that should have been automated long before. I'm not actually sure why it hasn't been automated yet. LLM's can kind of do it, I just wish we had automated it with something deterministic and human.

[nradov]

The fact that LLMs can kind of do it is an indictment of current programming languages and frameworks. We're coding at too low a level of abstraction. Code has too much boilerplate, too little entropy. We need a new generation of much higher level languages which would obviate much of the need for code generation. Of course, the tension there is that high-level abstractions always leak and don't work well when maximum performance and efficiency is required.

[rustystump]

While i dont disagree with the larger point here i do disagree that all the code we ever need has been written. There are still soooooo many new things to uncover in that domain.

[CamperBob2]

Like what?

[cgh]

New cryptography algorithms, particularly post-quantum cryptography

New zero-knowledge proofs

Video compression

And so forth.

[CamperBob2]

Those are all instances of reuse of existing techniques in new contexts. And when genuinely-new algorithms do arise from genuinely-new areas of study, it's easy enough to teach LLMs how to apply and deploy them.

[MattGrommes]

Look at the history of art. Lots of people used the same paint that had always been used and the same brushes, and came up with wildly different uses for those tools. Until there are literally no people involved, we'll always be using the tools in new ways.

[charcircuit]

You can just have AI generate its own synthetic data to train AI with. If you want knowledge about how to use it to be in the a model itself.

[Schlagbohrer]

According to the nobel prize winner Geoffrey Hinton, these LLMs will be able to talk to each other and self-train in the same way that AlphaGo started playing games against itself to be able to surpass all human experts, on who's games it had originally been trained and therefore originally been restricted to their ability. This is how LLMs will surpass human knowledge rather than being limited to a statistical average from human generated training data.

[lifis]

You can have the LLM itself generate it based on the documentation, just like a human early adopter would

[fritzo]

The same could be asked about people. The answer is social intelligence.

[pklausler]

This would also mean that we should design new programming languages out of sight of LLMs in case we need to hide code from them.

[danielbln]

Inject the prior art into the (ever increasing) context window, let in-context-learning to its thing and go?

[nurettin]

I still research efficient algorithms. You can describe these to LLMs and they do it without any prior art. They just took away the stomach churners.

In fact, we probably started a communist revolution in software with anthropic/openai streaming your solutions to lesser coders.

[imtringued]

You're actually better off using the LLM to consult textbooks from the 70s, because most likely someone already came up with a better algorithm that hasn't seen adoption yet.

[nurettin]

Rude!