[Cyph0n]

Surrounded by enemies of their own creation. It’s a beautiful cycle of aggression and self-victimization; a true ouroboros.

On the intelligence front, Mossad does a wonderful job performing extra-judicial killings using the dirtiest tricks you could think of. They’re also very good partners: almost every counter-intelligence outfit sings their praises.

[idop]

> Surrounded by enemies of their own creation.

Step 1: Get 6 million of you systematically eradicated in Europe and hundreds of thousands more booted from their homes in the Middle East for "reasons".

Step 2: Build yourself a country so no one can throw you out again.

Step 3: Get attacked by the countries who threw you out for "reasons".

Step 4: Get accused of "aggression".

People's continued downplay and revisionism of Jewish and Israeli history is truly something to behold.

[Cyph0n]

Step 1: A Holocaust perpetrated by Germany, not Palestine.

Step 2: Build a country out of Lego- I mean, gradually settle an existing, populated area of the Levant - Palestine - and then have daddy Britain and later big daddy USA forcibly carve out a chunk of the land without input from the natives. And no, it was not a UN partition plan because most of the world was still colonized at the time.

Step 3: Take advantage of the obvious discontent with this move by the natives and activate Plan Dalet to take even more of the land. After all, the land granted by the partition plan is not enough.

Step 4: War starts with neighboring countries, partly to disrupt the ethnic cleansing campaign against a mostly defenseless population, but also to satisfy their own expansionist aims (esp. Transjordan).

[reliabilityguy]

> War starts with neighboring countries, partly to disrupt the ethnic cleansing campaign against a mostly defenseless population

Did you made this all up?

There is zero evidence that the war started because the Jews were ethnically cleansing “defenseless population”. It is enough to go to the library and read newspapers from the time where Arabs openly stated that they do no accept Jewish state for the sake of it being Jewish.

[idop]

Step 1: Lie.

The people who fled Europe or forced out of the Middle East purchased empty lands, dried marshes, planted forests, installed infrastructure, sown fields, built cities and created a democracy to govern themselves. Incidentally, some purchased lands had squatters from Syria, Jordan, Arabia, etc., who lived on lands they did not own. Bye bye and boo hoo.

Seven different armies invaded Israel on its day of foundation. Seven armies got wrecked. Entire countries with billions of people keep crying about it, going so far as making the destruction of Israel an official goal, in some countries even actual laws! No conspiracy theories, no "Plan Dalet" and other bullshit your Hamas friends told you about, their real, actual goals stated right in your face.

[Cyph0n]

I mean, Israeli historians corroborated Plan Dalet, but sure, let’s call it a conspiracy. I am going to stop responding here.

[reliabilityguy]

Are you saying that the Jews didn’t buy land in the Ottoman Empire and the early British mandate times?

I know that the pro-Palestinian side attempts to erase any link of Jewish people to the area, but there are documents that are not even 100 years old.

[Pay08]

This is frankly, completely ahistorical. The British famously backed the Palestinians in the 1948 war (only barely, they mostly didn't care, but still did back them) and didn't like the idea of Israel so much so that they withdrew from the UN committee over it. Palestinians famously collaborated with Hitler as well. The USA only started being allied with Israel in the late 60s.

> And no, it was not a UN partition plan because most of the world was still colonized at the time.

And I can't even begin to fathom what this means.

As you noted in an another comment, Plan Dalet was corroborated by Israeli historians. Which is false. It was corroborated by one Israeli historian, who retracted his findings after finding out his source for the writings of Ben-Gurion were edited posthumously.

And "war starts" is a very nice and PG way to phrase "attempted to genocide Jews".

[Cyph0n]

Yes, it is completely ahistorical - if you buy in to the blessed Zionist narrative, that is.

> The British famously backed the Palestinians

No, the British backed the Jordanians, not the Palestinians. Jordan had its own goals as I alluded to elsewhere. I would recommend reading a bit further on the subtleties and limits to that backing, as well as the strategic reasons for said backing. But I wasn’t talking about the war at all here.

They withdrew because they did not know how to balance the two sides. It was a hot potato, so they threw into the lap of the US.

> And I can't even begin to fathom what this means.

How many seats were there at the UNGA at the time? And how many of those seats belonged to countries who could make sovereign decisions without fear of repercussion from the newly emerged world powers? Keep in mind that WWII ended less than two years ago at this point.

> As you noted in an another comment, Plan Dalet was corroborated by Israeli historians. Which is false.

So there was no ethnic cleansing at all? I suppose 700k or so Palestinians just oopsied their way out of their homes and villages.

> And "war starts" is a very nice and PG way to phrase "attempted to genocide Jews".

Oh boy, not this again..

[reliabilityguy]

> No, the British backed the Jordanians, not the Palestinians.

What is the difference between Jordanians and Palestinians given that the line that separates them is drown by the Brits?

> So there was no ethnic cleansing at all? I suppose 700k or so Palestinians just oopsied their way out of their homes and villages.

So they all left because Israel kicked them all out? What about the interviews and news articles from the time where Arabs themselves said that Jordan Army asked them to leave for the duration of the fights?

And you are the one talking about narratives?

[Pay08]

I find it interesting that all of your arguments rely on emotion, not fact.

[gzread]

I think you need to dive into more detail of what "build yourself a country" entails.

[amritananda]

Zionism existed since the late 19th century. It cannot be considered solely a response to the Holocaust. It was an outgrowth of the many nationalist movements that were occurring in Europe at the time, and even as far back as the 1920s the consensus was that the establishment of a Jewish state required a Jewish majority. This is clearly evident in the writings of people like Jabrotinsky and Herzl himself. I don't think any native population would take kindly to what exactly this implied.

[Pay08]

You're a little off on the history. Zionism as a political movement (as opposed to the cultural idea which has existed for 3000 or so years) dates back to the late 18th century, as one of the responses to both antisemitism and the emerging nationalist ideas in Europe. The deciding philosophy in this case is the idea that antisemitism cannot be fought, that it is a universal constant of sorts. This was originally a fringe left-wing idea, with the response being to stop being Jews (the Reform branch was borne out of this and is the reason many Jews, including me, still dislike it, even if it is a bit unfair). After the Holocaust, however, this idea transformed from a left-wing one to a right-wing one, where the solution became to take up arms and defend ourselves from those who would wish to kill us. I don't know about Jabrotinsky but your claim on Herzl is very hotly debated[0]. Not that I imagine many Arabs can read German. The claim also heavily erases Jewish presence in the Levant.

[0] https://tikvah.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Hazony-Did-Her...

[hparadiz]

How dare the Israelis not let themselves get genocided. The audacity.

[Cyph0n]

At what point in its history was Israel ever in actual danger of being “genocided”?

This rhetoric circles back to the self-victimization complex btw.

[idop]

Every day since its first day as a state. There are several countries with billions of people whose stated, official objective is the destruction of Israel. Iran has giant countdown clocks and advertisements for the destruction of Israel. They have laws against peace with Israel. The Houthis literally have "Death to Israel" (and America) on their flag.

[hparadiz]

Internet arguments are entirely irrelevant.

This women is in a trench just for fun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#...

[markus_zhang]

Apparently at the beginning and throughout the Cold War, IMO. Not to say that I want to blame on just one side, though.

[Cyph0n]

No, Israel has never been seriously threatened with elimination. Even in 1948, they were militarily superior and more organized than all of their neighbors. They in fact proved this in 1967.

But they sure love to claim that they were at the cusp of elimination at various points - again, the self-victimization complex in action :)

[markus_zhang]

> Even in 1948, they were militarily superior and more organized than all of their neighbors.

Yeah I think that's why they were not wiped out, not that their neighbours were super good heart. They were and still are less competent.

[markus_zhang]

I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it. I wouldn't hope for any long-term peace between IL and surrounding country without IL holding a very big stick which the US gives to them.

I think actually they are in a bit of panic mode because the US might want to get out from the ME and focus on China. They want a guarantee that Iran won't be able to come on its foot again in at least 10 years. That's all my guess, though.

[dgxyz]

I think also everyone needs to understand that Israel are a wedge in the operations of rival Islamic terrorist factions. If they went poof and ceased to exist suddenly then it'd switch straight to Darfur mode out there. It wouldn't suddenly be kumbaya and holding hands.

[baud147258]

> I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it.

Maybe by starting to behave as if the Palestinian population that live on the territory they control have equal rights? Like stopping West Bank colonization projects?

[halflife]

2006 Gaza was left to their own independent rule. Shortly after that Hamas killed the PLO, assumed control, and started fire rockets into Israel. And you’re saying that we need to try that again with the West Bank?

[Cyph0n]

That’s not what happened. You (unintentionally I am sure) glossed over the elections being overruled by the US and Israel, the attempted coup by Fatah in Gaza, and the subsequent blockade.

[halflife]

The blockade started after the rockets. And how can US and Israel overrule elections in Gaza? Fatah wanted a coup because they lost to Hamas. That’s why there’s no election in the West Bank.

[Cyph0n]

Read up on the election here, tired of responding in this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

On rocket attacks, Hamas was sticking relatively well to the ceasefire (again, talking about Hamas, not other groups). The blockade was tightened by Israel post-takeover, which then lead to a resumption of rocket attacks.

[blks]

This is not an argument for illegal occupation and expansion into West Bank. Israel should follow international law and agreements they themselves signed.

[reliabilityguy]

Palestinians too. Unfortunately, they are not sticking to their side of the bargain as well.

[yes_really]

Oh yeah, I'm sure stopping the "West Bank colonization projects" will make Iran be peaceful.

[baud147258]

At least that'd improve the chance of having peaceful neighbours, instead of ones who'll listen to any envoy from Iran saying that bombing Israel is the best solution for living in peace.

[yes_really]

It really wouldn't make a difference. A country that is already so radicalized that it thinks bombing Israel is the best solution for living in peace would not change its mind for the Palestinians.

I think this article explains it well: https://www.richardhanania.com/p/how-trump-proved-foreign-po...

[reliabilityguy]

Question: why do Palestinians do not take a unilateral step of declaring “no more armed resistance”? If basks can, why Palestinians can’t?

[Cyph0n]

So the solution is for Israel to get an even bigger “stick” than nuclear weapons? How about a just solution for the Palestinians instead?

[markus_zhang]

Who is going to do that? Obviously not in anyone's interests. That is, anyone who can push the situation towards that direction.

[Cyph0n]

You’re either missing my point or deflecting. Let me expand one last time.

Israel claims to be threatened by its neighbors. Israel claims to want peace with countries in the region. Neighboring countries have repeatedly stated that a precondition to normalization is a just solution for Palestinians. But Israel does not want a just solution.

In other words, the problem is entirely self-inflicted. Israel wants peace, but without making any concessions on the issue of Palestine. So instead it pursues a system of “peace through violence” - just like it does in the West Bank and Gaza.

[halflife]

There peace with Jordan and Egypt. 2 countries that were at war with Israel, Egypt got Sinai back, Jordan did not want the West Bank back.

[Cyph0n]

What do you mean by “back”? The West Bank was never legitimately part of Jordan - they forcibly annexed it in 1948.

As for the peace treaties:

Jordan simply did not have the ability to fight Israel any longer, or to deal with Palestinian factions operating in its territory.

Egypt wanted its land back after failing to reclaim it in 1973.

[throw2845893]

This is bullshit. Between 1948 and 1967 the entire West Bank and Gaza were under control of neighbouring Arab countries. They could’ve set up a Palestinian state within “the 1967 borders”, but nobody did. Instead they went to war to try and take the rest.

Besides, Israel has since made peace with Egypt and Jordan.

[Cyph0n]

Okay, and? Do you think the fact that neighbors having their own expansionist ambitions is somehow a “gotcha”? And given the whole Greater Israel plan, do you seriously think that Israel would have even allowed this to happen?

Now, back to the present day. Palestinians live under a system of occupation and blockade and recently genocide. This is not a just situation. It is also not sustainable without continued repression and use of force. There is no way that Israel will be welcomed into the wider ME under this regime.

[bpt3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

Start here, and then work your way both forwards and backwards if you have any interest in learning.

[Cyph0n]

Wow thanks for the pointer, I had no idea! Eye opening stuff!

[bpt3]

You apparently need it, given your illogical and inaccurate statements in this thread, but I won't hold my breath while waiting for you to accept that.

[Cyph0n]

Feel free to respond where you disagree for the benefit of those reading the thread.

Btw, linking to a wiki page does not reflect any knowledge on your part. By not engaging with your own words, it is fair to default to assuming that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[bpt3]

Others have already done so since my initial comment and your response was either "nah" or to disengage, so I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who is clearly personally invested in a very specific narrative.

[Cyph0n]

Oh, I was never interested in arguing with you at all given how you decided to start off this conversation.

I was just pointing out that you can always respond and demonstrate your brilliance to readers of the thread.