[idop]

> Surrounded by enemies of their own creation.

Step 1: Get 6 million of you systematically eradicated in Europe and hundreds of thousands more booted from their homes in the Middle East for "reasons".

Step 2: Build yourself a country so no one can throw you out again.

Step 3: Get attacked by the countries who threw you out for "reasons".

Step 4: Get accused of "aggression".

People's continued downplay and revisionism of Jewish and Israeli history is truly something to behold.

[Cyph0n]

Step 1: A Holocaust perpetrated by Germany, not Palestine.

Step 2: Build a country out of Lego- I mean, gradually settle an existing, populated area of the Levant - Palestine - and then have daddy Britain and later big daddy USA forcibly carve out a chunk of the land without input from the natives. And no, it was not a UN partition plan because most of the world was still colonized at the time.

Step 3: Take advantage of the obvious discontent with this move by the natives and activate Plan Dalet to take even more of the land. After all, the land granted by the partition plan is not enough.

Step 4: War starts with neighboring countries, partly to disrupt the ethnic cleansing campaign against a mostly defenseless population, but also to satisfy their own expansionist aims (esp. Transjordan).

[reliabilityguy]

> War starts with neighboring countries, partly to disrupt the ethnic cleansing campaign against a mostly defenseless population

Did you made this all up?

There is zero evidence that the war started because the Jews were ethnically cleansing “defenseless population”. It is enough to go to the library and read newspapers from the time where Arabs openly stated that they do no accept Jewish state for the sake of it being Jewish.

[idop]

Step 1: Lie.

The people who fled Europe or forced out of the Middle East purchased empty lands, dried marshes, planted forests, installed infrastructure, sown fields, built cities and created a democracy to govern themselves. Incidentally, some purchased lands had squatters from Syria, Jordan, Arabia, etc., who lived on lands they did not own. Bye bye and boo hoo.

Seven different armies invaded Israel on its day of foundation. Seven armies got wrecked. Entire countries with billions of people keep crying about it, going so far as making the destruction of Israel an official goal, in some countries even actual laws! No conspiracy theories, no "Plan Dalet" and other bullshit your Hamas friends told you about, their real, actual goals stated right in your face.

[Cyph0n]

I mean, Israeli historians corroborated Plan Dalet, but sure, let’s call it a conspiracy. I am going to stop responding here.

[reliabilityguy]

Are you saying that the Jews didn’t buy land in the Ottoman Empire and the early British mandate times?

I know that the pro-Palestinian side attempts to erase any link of Jewish people to the area, but there are documents that are not even 100 years old.

[Pay08]

This is frankly, completely ahistorical. The British famously backed the Palestinians in the 1948 war (only barely, they mostly didn't care, but still did back them) and didn't like the idea of Israel so much so that they withdrew from the UN committee over it. Palestinians famously collaborated with Hitler as well. The USA only started being allied with Israel in the late 60s.

> And no, it was not a UN partition plan because most of the world was still colonized at the time.

And I can't even begin to fathom what this means.

As you noted in an another comment, Plan Dalet was corroborated by Israeli historians. Which is false. It was corroborated by one Israeli historian, who retracted his findings after finding out his source for the writings of Ben-Gurion were edited posthumously.

And "war starts" is a very nice and PG way to phrase "attempted to genocide Jews".

[Cyph0n]

Yes, it is completely ahistorical - if you buy in to the blessed Zionist narrative, that is.

> The British famously backed the Palestinians

No, the British backed the Jordanians, not the Palestinians. Jordan had its own goals as I alluded to elsewhere. I would recommend reading a bit further on the subtleties and limits to that backing, as well as the strategic reasons for said backing. But I wasn’t talking about the war at all here.

They withdrew because they did not know how to balance the two sides. It was a hot potato, so they threw into the lap of the US.

> And I can't even begin to fathom what this means.

How many seats were there at the UNGA at the time? And how many of those seats belonged to countries who could make sovereign decisions without fear of repercussion from the newly emerged world powers? Keep in mind that WWII ended less than two years ago at this point.

> As you noted in an another comment, Plan Dalet was corroborated by Israeli historians. Which is false.

So there was no ethnic cleansing at all? I suppose 700k or so Palestinians just oopsied their way out of their homes and villages.

> And "war starts" is a very nice and PG way to phrase "attempted to genocide Jews".

Oh boy, not this again..

[reliabilityguy]

> No, the British backed the Jordanians, not the Palestinians.

What is the difference between Jordanians and Palestinians given that the line that separates them is drown by the Brits?

> So there was no ethnic cleansing at all? I suppose 700k or so Palestinians just oopsied their way out of their homes and villages.

So they all left because Israel kicked them all out? What about the interviews and news articles from the time where Arabs themselves said that Jordan Army asked them to leave for the duration of the fights?

And you are the one talking about narratives?

[Pay08]

I find it interesting that all of your arguments rely on emotion, not fact.

[gzread]

I think you need to dive into more detail of what "build yourself a country" entails.

[amritananda]

Zionism existed since the late 19th century. It cannot be considered solely a response to the Holocaust. It was an outgrowth of the many nationalist movements that were occurring in Europe at the time, and even as far back as the 1920s the consensus was that the establishment of a Jewish state required a Jewish majority. This is clearly evident in the writings of people like Jabrotinsky and Herzl himself. I don't think any native population would take kindly to what exactly this implied.

[Pay08]

You're a little off on the history. Zionism as a political movement (as opposed to the cultural idea which has existed for 3000 or so years) dates back to the late 18th century, as one of the responses to both antisemitism and the emerging nationalist ideas in Europe. The deciding philosophy in this case is the idea that antisemitism cannot be fought, that it is a universal constant of sorts. This was originally a fringe left-wing idea, with the response being to stop being Jews (the Reform branch was borne out of this and is the reason many Jews, including me, still dislike it, even if it is a bit unfair). After the Holocaust, however, this idea transformed from a left-wing one to a right-wing one, where the solution became to take up arms and defend ourselves from those who would wish to kill us. I don't know about Jabrotinsky but your claim on Herzl is very hotly debated[0]. Not that I imagine many Arabs can read German. The claim also heavily erases Jewish presence in the Levant.

[0] https://tikvah.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Hazony-Did-Her...

[hparadiz]

How dare the Israelis not let themselves get genocided. The audacity.

[Cyph0n]

At what point in its history was Israel ever in actual danger of being “genocided”?

This rhetoric circles back to the self-victimization complex btw.

[idop]

Every day since its first day as a state. There are several countries with billions of people whose stated, official objective is the destruction of Israel. Iran has giant countdown clocks and advertisements for the destruction of Israel. They have laws against peace with Israel. The Houthis literally have "Death to Israel" (and America) on their flag.

[hparadiz]

Internet arguments are entirely irrelevant.

This women is in a trench just for fun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#...

[markus_zhang]

Apparently at the beginning and throughout the Cold War, IMO. Not to say that I want to blame on just one side, though.

[Cyph0n]

No, Israel has never been seriously threatened with elimination. Even in 1948, they were militarily superior and more organized than all of their neighbors. They in fact proved this in 1967.

But they sure love to claim that they were at the cusp of elimination at various points - again, the self-victimization complex in action :)

[markus_zhang]

> Even in 1948, they were militarily superior and more organized than all of their neighbors.

Yeah I think that's why they were not wiped out, not that their neighbours were super good heart. They were and still are less competent.

[Cyph0n]

The point is that they were never in danger of being wiped out.