[markus_zhang]

I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it. I wouldn't hope for any long-term peace between IL and surrounding country without IL holding a very big stick which the US gives to them.

I think actually they are in a bit of panic mode because the US might want to get out from the ME and focus on China. They want a guarantee that Iran won't be able to come on its foot again in at least 10 years. That's all my guess, though.

[dgxyz]

I think also everyone needs to understand that Israel are a wedge in the operations of rival Islamic terrorist factions. If they went poof and ceased to exist suddenly then it'd switch straight to Darfur mode out there. It wouldn't suddenly be kumbaya and holding hands.

[baud147258]

> I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it.

Maybe by starting to behave as if the Palestinian population that live on the territory they control have equal rights? Like stopping West Bank colonization projects?

[halflife]

2006 Gaza was left to their own independent rule. Shortly after that Hamas killed the PLO, assumed control, and started fire rockets into Israel. And you’re saying that we need to try that again with the West Bank?

[Cyph0n]

That’s not what happened. You (unintentionally I am sure) glossed over the elections being overruled by the US and Israel, the attempted coup by Fatah in Gaza, and the subsequent blockade.

[halflife]

The blockade started after the rockets. And how can US and Israel overrule elections in Gaza? Fatah wanted a coup because they lost to Hamas. That’s why there’s no election in the West Bank.

[Cyph0n]

Read up on the election here, tired of responding in this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

On rocket attacks, Hamas was sticking relatively well to the ceasefire (again, talking about Hamas, not other groups). The blockade was tightened by Israel post-takeover, which then lead to a resumption of rocket attacks.

[reliabilityguy]

> Hamas was sticking relatively well to the ceasefire

By launching rockets? Are you serious?

How can you argue in good faith that launching unguided rockets indiscriminately over civilian population centers as “sticking to the ceasefire”?

[blks]

This is not an argument for illegal occupation and expansion into West Bank. Israel should follow international law and agreements they themselves signed.

[reliabilityguy]

Palestinians too. Unfortunately, they are not sticking to their side of the bargain as well.

[yes_really]

Oh yeah, I'm sure stopping the "West Bank colonization projects" will make Iran be peaceful.

[baud147258]

At least that'd improve the chance of having peaceful neighbours, instead of ones who'll listen to any envoy from Iran saying that bombing Israel is the best solution for living in peace.

[yes_really]

It really wouldn't make a difference. A country that is already so radicalized that it thinks bombing Israel is the best solution for living in peace would not change its mind for the Palestinians.

I think this article explains it well: https://www.richardhanania.com/p/how-trump-proved-foreign-po...

[reliabilityguy]

Question: why do Palestinians do not take a unilateral step of declaring “no more armed resistance”? If basks can, why Palestinians can’t?

[Cyph0n]

So the solution is for Israel to get an even bigger “stick” than nuclear weapons? How about a just solution for the Palestinians instead?

[markus_zhang]

Who is going to do that? Obviously not in anyone's interests. That is, anyone who can push the situation towards that direction.

[Cyph0n]

You’re either missing my point or deflecting. Let me expand one last time.

Israel claims to be threatened by its neighbors. Israel claims to want peace with countries in the region. Neighboring countries have repeatedly stated that a precondition to normalization is a just solution for Palestinians. But Israel does not want a just solution.

In other words, the problem is entirely self-inflicted. Israel wants peace, but without making any concessions on the issue of Palestine. So instead it pursues a system of “peace through violence” - just like it does in the West Bank and Gaza.

[halflife]

There peace with Jordan and Egypt. 2 countries that were at war with Israel, Egypt got Sinai back, Jordan did not want the West Bank back.

[Cyph0n]

What do you mean by “back”? The West Bank was never legitimately part of Jordan - they forcibly annexed it in 1948.

As for the peace treaties:

Jordan simply did not have the ability to fight Israel any longer, or to deal with Palestinian factions operating in its territory.

Egypt wanted its land back after failing to reclaim it in 1973.

[reliabilityguy]

> What do you mean by “back”?

> Egypt wanted its land back after failing to reclaim it in 1973.

It seems you are aware that peace deal with Egypt is what got Sinai back to Egypt.

[throw2845893]

This is bullshit. Between 1948 and 1967 the entire West Bank and Gaza were under control of neighbouring Arab countries. They could’ve set up a Palestinian state within “the 1967 borders”, but nobody did. Instead they went to war to try and take the rest.

Besides, Israel has since made peace with Egypt and Jordan.

[Cyph0n]

Okay, and? Do you think the fact that neighbors having their own expansionist ambitions is somehow a “gotcha”? And given the whole Greater Israel plan, do you seriously think that Israel would have even allowed this to happen?

Now, back to the present day. Palestinians live under a system of occupation and blockade and recently genocide. This is not a just situation. It is also not sustainable without continued repression and use of force. There is no way that Israel will be welcomed into the wider ME under this regime.

[reliabilityguy]

> And given the whole Greater Israel plan

What is this “plan”?

> Palestinians live under a system of occupation and blockade

What did the Palestinians do to not end up in this situation?

> genocide

War is not genocide. And remarks by some of the politicians are not a proof of genocide as well.

> There is no way that Israel will be welcomed into the wider ME under this regime.

Israel just need to be stronger to survive as they did in the first 20-30 years of their statehood.