[kittywantsbacon]

From the bottom:

> This is a rendition, not a translation. I do not know any Chinese. I could approach the text at all only because Paul Carus, in his 1898 translation of the Tao Te Ching, printed the Chinese text with each character followed by a transliteration and a translation. My gratitude to him is unending.

[lubujackson]

Having done a similar "rendition" to a book of poetry, I agree it is not the same as translating directly. It does open up a question about the fuzziness of "what is even translation?"

Especially when we talk about translating historic writing. Yes, not knowing the source language is a huge barrier. But so is not knowing specific cultural touchstones or references in the text. In-depth translations usually transliterate as a part of the process. Many words and language patterns are untranslatable, which is why perfect translations are impossible.

When translating poetry, issues of meter and rhythm are even more important. It comes down to what the purpose of a translation is meant to achieve. Yes, there are ideas and themes but there is no hiding the fact that translators always imprint their own perspective on a work - it's unavoidable and personally shouldn't even be the goal.

Most translators of popular texts look closely at other translations to "triangulate" on meaning and authorial intent. Older translations may use archaic writing but have historical understanding, well-researched translations may be more precise about tricky words or concepts. More "writerly" translations tend to rebuild the work from the building blocks and produce a more cohesive whole. None of these are wrong approaches.

I like the term "rendition" because it throws away the concept of the "authoritative translation". I like to think of translations the same way as cover songs. The best covers may be wildly different from the original but they share the same roots.

As a reader, if you can't ever "hear" the original because you don't know thr language you can still appreciate someone's "cover version", or triangulate the original by reading multiple translations.

[AnthonBerg]

Beautifully, this reads like it came right out of Le Guin's rendition of the Tao Te Ching:

Most translators of popular texts look closely at other translations to "triangulate" on meaning and authorial intent. Older translations may use archaic writing but have historical understanding, well-researched translations may be more precise about tricky words or concepts. More "writerly" translations tend to rebuild the work from the building blocks and produce a more cohesive whole. None of these are wrong approaches.

[riffraff]

For those with a passing interest in this topic and quite some patience, "le ton beau de Marót" by Douglas Hofstadter is a whole book of musings about translation, particularly of poetry.

It's a fun book full of interesting linguistic trivia.

The patience would be needed to get through the 50 or so translations of the same poem, all different and "wrong" in some way.

[kjellsbells]

also recommended: After Babel by George Steiner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Babel

[jasomill]

See also the preface[1] to Hofstadter's translation[2] of Eugene Onegin.

[1] https://jasomill.at/HofstadterOneginPreface.pdf

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-465-0209...

[2b3a51]

The Library of Congress very generously provides a scan of the Paul Carus translation [1].

The transliteration of the Tao starts on page 159 and consists of columns of the characters each with a literal meaning and occasional comments by the translator. I found the first few chapters in that presentation very interesting, like a kind of puzzle (I don't read Chinese to any extent at all).

[1] https://www.loc.gov/item/34009062/

[raincole]

Honestly, even if you know Chinese, it's very hard to translate Tao Te Ching into English.

Hell, it's hard to translate it into Chinese. Even the first paragraph is controversial. For example this rendition says:

> The name you can say

> isn’t the real name.

However, in a 5th century interpretation[0], it's more akin to:

> The fame and wealth the mortals praise are not a natural state.

(My extremely simplified paraphrasing)

[0]: https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=491818

[prewett]

I didn't encounter the Dao de Jing until later in life, but the opening bit has always seemed straightforward to me. I first saw it as "the way that can be described is not the Way", but also "the way that can be traveled is not the eternal Way". That is, the eternal (spiritual) Way cannot be concretized, just as a name is not the real thing. Or, given that this is HN, "the software development methodology that can be executed like a program is not software development methodology". ("The Agile that can be PM'd is not Agile.")

However, I think it might require some life maturity to recognize that. Certainly a recovery from Englightenment rationalism. My person experience is that an understanding that "the name that can be named/identified is not the eternal Name" and "the way that can be walked is not the eternal Way" took me until around my 40s to appreciate.

Daoism also appears to have taken a literalist turn (ironically). The book "Taoism: the Parting of the Ways" [1], by (former) Harvard Professor Holmes Welch, interprets the text as being a guide to a mystical way of living, similar to St. John of the Cross (minus the Christian part), which is fascinating. Then he describes how the two main factions took the text literally, and how that evolved.

[1] I have a summary at http://geoffprewett.com/BookReviews/TaoismThePartingOfTheWay...

[mbivert]

> but the opening bit has always seemed straightforward to me

the a/symmetry of the opening bits in Chinese, visually echoes a taiji:

> 道可道，

> 非恆道；

> 名可名，

> 非恆名。

given the diversity of translations available for those bits, I think it's fair to say that there's room for debate regarding their exact meaning − dare I say

amusingly, by being certain one understand what it means, somehow one really does not. Lao-Tseu may have been way, way wiser than average.

[sifar]

Exactly. It subrly hints at the limitations of language in capturing true understanding.

This is something I was impressed with. Almost every other ancient text starts of being full of certainty or being the authoratitve truth.

[mbivert]

> It subtly hints at the limitations of language in capturing true understanding

and that's still one interpretation ^_^

> Almost every other ancient text starts of being full of certainty

I can't say for sure about ancient texts, but famous wise men certainly (always?) encouraged a fair amount of humility (e.g. Shakyamuni, Socrates, Jesus, Confucius). But few actually wrote.

however, in general, their followers − and popular interpretations − embarrass themselves much less with humility.

in case this isn't known to you − I find this delightful − note that the (respectful) "子" suffix used in names (e.g. Lao-tseu is 老子, Confucius is 孔夫子) means "small thing", "seed", "child".

[anthk]

In Spanish we say "caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar" (roamer, there's no path, the path it's built upon walking".

[Mordisquitos]

To clarify, that sentence is not from a Spanish translation of the Tao Te Ching; it is a fragment of Antonio Machado's poem 'Caminante no hay camino':

    Caminante, son tus huellas
    el camino y nada más;
    Caminante, no hay camino,
    se hace camino al andar.
    Al andar se hace el camino,
    y al volver la vista atrás
    se ve la senda que nunca
    se ha de volver a pisar.
    Caminante no hay camino
    sino estelas en la mar.

[Akyra]

Caminante, son tus huellas el camino y nada más; Caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar. Al andar se hace el camino, y al volver la vista atrás se ve la senda que nunca se ha de volver a pisar. Caminante no hay camino sino estelas en la mar.

[anthk]

Yep, but everyone said similar stuff and got parallel ideas across centuries. Especially in Math and Logic.

[__patchbit__]

One reading I came across claimed the author of `art of war' had his foot amputated in a form of punishment. You had to be careful with your language at court in those times.

It is possible to associate passages from the Tao Te Ching to memes that just pop up in your social media feeds. A native speaker and writer will have rich associations in the language you can get a sense of in the language used to cover Chinese philosophy at the SEP entries.

[panarky]

This is straight-up Baudrillard simulacra/simulation.

The moment you say "Dao" (or "Agile", or "methodology"), you've already moved from the thing-in-itself to a sign living inside a sign system. That sign can be useful, but it can't be identical to what it points at.

> “The Agile that can be PM’d is not Agile.”

That’s exactly the stages of simulacra in miniature:

- Faithful copy: "Agile" names a set of lived practices that correspond to reality.

- Masks/denatures: cargo-cult rituals distort it (standups-as-status-reporting).

- Masks absence: the org performs Agile theater to hide that genuine agility is gone.

- Pure simulacrum: "Agile" becomes a self-referential brand/signifier (certs, metrics, tooling) that relates primarily to other signs ("Agile maturity model", "story points velocity"), not to any actual working output.

[agumonkey]

Isn't that also what yields human society cycles ? generations cannot explain their learning well enough, at best the authority lives in inertia for a while and then it evaporates. All new generation misinterpret the past, and the problems reappear.

[koverstreet]

That's a reductionist take.

For a reductionist, it might be better understood as - step outside of your usual mode of thinking. Remember that you don't know everything. Or just - take time to stop and smell the flowers. Try to spend more time noticing and less time analyzing.

There are things that are difficult to communicate directly in the reductionist mode of thought - and are intended to have meaning at multiple levels of abstraction. You have to think a bit more laterally.

[Der_Einzige]

Jean Baudrillard is a fraud/charlatan. Semiotics is a fake field. Him and all his friends (i.e. Foucualt, Derrida, DnG, Althussar, etc) are at Chiropractors/ Homeopaths for the mind and at worst actual useful idiots for western intelligence agencies.

[sizzle]

What about Steven Pinker

[anondual]

You should have posted your comment at the top.

> Daoism also appears to have taken a literalist turn (ironically).

It's incredibly ironic. To those who wonder where the irony is, imagine writing a book of poems on "freesbeing", which you describe as an ineffable experience that one gets when they play the freesbee. In your book, most passages allude to subtleties that escape any reader who isn't a freesbee enthousiast. And so, only those who pick up a freesbee and start throwing it unlock the meaning in your book. Then thousands of years later, intellectuals try to explain "freesbeing" without knowing what even is the freesbee.

Daoism is a practical guide to a mystical way of life. Similar to the teachings of Buddhist mystics, Advaitist mystics, Christian mystics, Sufi mystics, and so forth. Most such teachings are very practical and somewhat point in the same (inner) direction. A shared core tenet is that experiences are infinitely more valid (i.e. true) than the content of thoughts (i.e. concepts, philosophy, beliefs, labels, words, etc) used to describe them. Said more commonly, the mind -- the craddle of thoughts, the mother of all concepts, explanations, and philosophies -- is a liar. This is peppered everywhere in the Tao Te Ching, starting from the very first line. Yet, most interpretations of it are conceptual, trying to make it into some kind of a philosophy.

[joquarky]

I wonder if those who have come to realize that their thoughts are an unreliable narrator are less prone to be upset by the confabulations of genAI.

[roromainmain]

Interesting. Your comparison reminds me of something from Lacanian psychoanalysis: the idea that people often mistake themselves for the symbolic labels they occupy, their title for instance. Like a doctor who would praise himself for being a doctor, a president a president. From that perspective, both versions of the Tao Te Ching line point to the same thing: what can be named, praised, or socially recognized isn’t the true underlying reality. Different phrasing, but the same structural idea.

[hosh]

More generalized, any kind of symbol representing something is not the something. The social labelling is very accessible, true now and true then.

There’s a Zen koan about that (with Zen coming from Chang which came from a meeting of Buddhism and Taoism in China) — about the finger pointing to the moon, and how all but one student looked at the finger.

In a different example, there is the distinction of virtue signaling and virtue (the “Te” in “Tao Te Ching”)

[polotics]

Thank you, this there is the first version I see that feels like it's got solid cultural context. I like Ursula's version and have read her books over the years, but for example when she write "mystery" in there I always felt she was dropping the ball a bit.

[getpost]

> it's hard to translate it into Chinese.

It's a text about non-duality, among other things. Like the Heart Sutra, or the Diamond Sutra, or 101 Zen Stories, it's not supposed to make sense in an ordinary way. A successful translation is, like the original, intended to catalyze a shift in awareness.

EDIT: For those with a nerdy or scholarly bent, I suggest Red Pine's translation[0], which includes translation of historically relevant commentaries.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Lao-tzus-Taoteching-Lao-Tzu/dp/155659...

[phendrenad2]

How can something translate into both of those things? The second translation doesn't have the concept of "saying" anything and the first translation says nothing about "wealth".

[t-3]

"dao" has multiple meanings; a road or path (extended by metaphor into philosophy), as well to speak or explain. So "dao ke dao fei chang dao", which dao has which meaning? How about the other characters, alone or in multi-character readings?

[hosh]

I have a hard copy of that book.

She’s captured the poetry and beauty of the received text very well. (I’ve tried my own hand at a translation and read a few other translations).