[btilly]

Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people?

The specific situation that is burned in my mind was a black girl who was in a math PhD program at the same time that I was. The department wound up bending their rules to the breaking point to give her a Masters on her way out because nobody wanted to risk the discrimination lawsuit that she was threatening. Her actual math knowledge was not even to the level that I would expect from a BSc in math.

I have never witnessed anything involving a white person that was anywhere near being similarly egregious. And I had experiences with that department which demonstrated in spades that white people were not given anywhere near as much leniency.

As for your final point, I thought I pretty much said that. I've not seen the specific studies that you're referring to.

[Volpe]

Discrimination causes a lot of problems, including that of having to 'over-correct'.

[btilly]

The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one, and gives lots of opportunities for those who want to discriminate to justify it to themselves.

The US military addressed this exact problem by making extra resources available to black recruits who were interested in becoming officers to assist them in performing to the exact same standards that were required of whites. The result? They managed to achieve their diversity goals among officers. And the expectations that you should reasonably have of an officer do not depend on race.

I like the approach that the US military took to affirmative action. By contrast I object to the way that our educational establishment routinely makes much better resources available to help white students achieve in one set of schools, while shoving black students through grades regardless of achievement in a different set of schools. Which then lets us all cry about the horrible discrimination when employers fail to treat high school diplomas equally for white and black kids.

[Volpe]

> The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one

I wasn't saying it was justified, I was saying it was a problem. One that doesn't exist if there was no discrimination.

Racial Discrimination is racial discrimination, there is no such thing as 'well justified' racial discrimination. Saying that "Well I know that Blacks' go through school easier so their degree means less" is no better than "They are black, I don't like them". It just helps people sleep better at night to think they have a 'good reason' for being racist.

[btilly]

OK, you've made the argument that only horrid racists believe that black high school graduates are less likely than white high school graduates to have basic competency at reading, writing and arithmetic.

But have you made the argument that people who believe that are WRONG?

This is not a question of opinion. This is a question of fact. For instance http://www.betterhighschools.org/docs/nhsc_highschoolliterac... quotes the figure Only 16% of Black high school seniors and 20% of Hispanic high school seniors scored at or above proficient on the 2005 NAEP reading test, compared to 43% of Caucasian students (NCES, 2007).

Now what do you propose that we should do about it?

[mc32]

>Now what do you propose that we should do about it?

Asians (Chinese and Japanese Americans were severely discriminated against in the US --to the point it was illegal for them to own property in some states (till '46). Yet, in a few decades, they were able to overcome the discrimination and even best whites as a whole.

Much of that appears to me culture based, not even ethnicity based. Now, not all Asians do well and have the same aptitude toward education and sacrifice. Compare East Asians with SouthEast Asians with Island Asians. Still, from my exposure, there is a large percentage whose parents inculcate learning and education and sacrifice (ex. Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother as modern example). On the other hand look at Appalachian whites. Education is made fun of and they are some of the poorest people in America.

Essentially, make education and learning something held dear and worthwhile. Many other white kinds I went to school with were apathetic towards education (these guys are now laying carpets and driving trucks and so on). It's totally different mindset comapred to say, ABCs. They might not "like" school, but they know it's a means to and end rather than an obstacle to having fun.

[btilly]

Jewish people are another example of a discriminated against minority which values education and has become successful. If you can get a group to actually acquire the skills that are needed, they succeed.

But the problem lies in getting them to do so. And if they do so, getting the rest of the country to realize that they have done so.

When I asked what should be done about it, I was being deliberately unfair. It is obvious to me that many well-meaning efforts to resolve the problems are backfiring. But I have no clue how to actually solve the problem.

For instance if you give kids credentials without requiring achievement, then people rationally will discount those credentials. But sufficient resources to allow kids to legitimately achieve to the same level are hard to come by. Particularly considering the fact that parents of affluent ethnic groups are generally willing to devote a lot of effort making sure that their children have all of the resources that they need.

However the one thing that I am sure does not work is to try to pretend that the problem does not exist, and to try to make it anathema for anyone to fail to step in line. And, unfortunately, that seems to be the most popular "solution" that we have.

[Volpe]

Oh I see, because they are disadvantaged and thus achieve less, we should disadvantage them... that'll make the world a better place.

That's why those people who believe that are wrong.

[batista]

>The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one, and gives lots of opportunities for those who want to discriminate to justify it to themselves.

The "past discrimination" was mass abductions from their countries, SLAVERY, Jim Crow laws, lynching, segregation, fewer rights and a hugely disproportionate percentage of the black population in prison.

The "reverse discrimination" is ...getting some more jobs or better grades.

Suddenly when it's for the benefit of the other side this 1/1000 less discrimination is "dangerous"?

I think white america can shut up and take it.

[hannahmitt]

Do you count the leniency in assuming white people have more legitimate credentials?

And how often are people hiring purely by the program of study? Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience? For the latter, it appears it's the opposite.

[btilly]

Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience?

In the specific case that I'm thinking of, thanks to affirmative action she had academic honors until, but not including grad school. (She did get a masters though.)

I've encountered some black people in the work place who I suspect were continuing to coast on affirmative action and willingness to accuse others of discrimination. They are a clear minority of the blacks that I've worked with. Furthermore I've never seen any of that minority manage to get good referrals from anyone I'd be interested in working with.

That said, there are some dysfunctional organizations out there where managers can find it easier to promote their problem employees to be someone else's problem than they do to fire them. Someone whose success was entirely dependent on affirmative action might do well in such an organization. My last experience with such an organization was fairly brief and was about 15 years ago. (I reached the point where I had to decide between finding a better job or filing a sexual harassment lawsuit against the man I was reporting to. Yes, that happens to men as well. I chose finding a better job.)

Update: I should clarify that my opinions about the relative competency of people in that program came from knowing them for several years, and from being in classes together.

[tsotha]

>Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience?

Well, there's Elizabeth Warren...

[antihero]

How can you possibly know all the factors involved?