[btilly]

Jewish people are another example of a discriminated against minority which values education and has become successful. If you can get a group to actually acquire the skills that are needed, they succeed.

But the problem lies in getting them to do so. And if they do so, getting the rest of the country to realize that they have done so.

When I asked what should be done about it, I was being deliberately unfair. It is obvious to me that many well-meaning efforts to resolve the problems are backfiring. But I have no clue how to actually solve the problem.

For instance if you give kids credentials without requiring achievement, then people rationally will discount those credentials. But sufficient resources to allow kids to legitimately achieve to the same level are hard to come by. Particularly considering the fact that parents of affluent ethnic groups are generally willing to devote a lot of effort making sure that their children have all of the resources that they need.

However the one thing that I am sure does not work is to try to pretend that the problem does not exist, and to try to make it anathema for anyone to fail to step in line. And, unfortunately, that seems to be the most popular "solution" that we have.

[mc32]

Throwing resources for the sake of it, I think would fall short. There has to be a plan and a change of attitude towards education, towards teaching, etc. by parents, pupils and society. Lots of students are dismissive of school, lots of parents expect school to do the child formation for them and forget that most of the responsibility lies with them.

Finland and Singapore are small and so their successes might now translate perfectly for a large, diverse nation. Yet, they might still have some lessons for us to learn.

One of the largest problems, in my view, might just be inertia. There are lots of people with large political capital tied up in the current system and are not willing to give it up despite this hurting chances of progress for the people they are trying to help.

[Volpe]

In the US, the Jewish people were never disenfranchised the way African-Americans were/are. I don't think they are comparable.

Why can't we admit the problem exists and work to reverse it. i.e give discriminated against minorities a chance where we otherwise wouldn't. It's not about 'fairness' it is about ending discrimination.

The privileged class love to discuss what works and what doesn't as an excuse not to do anything: The problem is so complex what can I do? Maybe nothing is the best thing to do!

[mc32]

I think he's referring to the European experience, ghettoes, etc.

Anyhow, yes we know a problem exists. I think the main problem is not so much discrimination (it's a problem, but not the bigger/basic problem) as having equal access to education (from society and from the parents -i.e. it's not just up to teachers to teach).

Without a good education, anti-discrimination will only allow you equal opportunity at shitty jobs) The second issue is just having fewer children allows parents to plow more money and attention into the fewer children they have. I think some of the fruit of fewer children is being seen by black parents as compared to latin american parents (who tend to have larger families) this despite latin families not being subject to the same discrimination in the US.

Re discussion. Pick any topic --this is what happens here. It's hardly surprising nor is it only seen in these discussions.