[whynotminot]

Why would someone who likes solving problems choose a very lucrative career path solving problems… hmmm

You can also solve problems as a local handyman but that doesn’t pad the 401K quite as well as a career in software.

I feel like there’s a lot of tech-fetishist right now on the “if you don’t deeply love to write code then just leave!” train without somehow realizing that most of us have our jobs because we need to pay bills, not because it’s our burning passion.

[OkayPhysicist]

It's because there are a significant number of us for who tinkering with and building shit is basically a compulsion. And software development is vastly more available, and quicker to iterate and thus more satisfying, than any other tinkering discipline. It's probably related to whatever drives some people to make art, the only difference being that the market has decided that the tinkers are worth a hell of a lot more.

For evidence towards the compulsion argument, look at the existence of FOSS software. Or videogame modding. Or all the other freely available software in existence. None of that is made by people who made the rational decision of "software development is a lucrative field that will pay me a comfortable salary, thus I should study software development". It's all made by people for whom there is no alternative but to build.

[aleph_minus_one]

> I feel like there’s a lot of tech-fetishist right now on the “if you don’t deeply love to write code then just leave!” train without somehow realizing that most of us have our jobs because we need to pay bills, not because it’s our burning passion.

I would claim that I love coding quite a lot. The problem is rather that my bosses and colleagues don't care about what I love about it. It is rather appreciated if you implement tasks fast with shitty code instead of considering the fact that tasks are easy to implement and the code is really fast as a strong evidence that the abstractions were well-chosen.

Thus, I believe that people who just do it for the money have it easier in the "programming industry" than programmers who really love programming, and are thus a big annoyance to managers.

I thus really wonder myself why companies tell all the time about "love for programming" instead of "love for paying the bills" and "love for implementing tasks fast with shitty code", which would give them people who are a much better culture fit for their real organizational processes.

[carlosjobim]

Very level-headed comment. I'm one of those who sees programming as a means to an end and nothing else.

If I order something to be delivered, I don't care what model of car the delivery company uses. Much less what kind of settings they have for the carburetor needles or what kind of oil they're using. Sure, somebody somewhere might have to care about this.

That's also how people like me see programming. If the code delivers what we need, then great. Leave it be like that. There are more interesting problems to solve, no need to mess with a solution which is working well.

[int_19h]

The problem is that "code delivers what we need" usually translates to "shovel crap as fast as it sells". Combined with heavy monopolization of the software market, where users have very little recourse to being force-fed crap - what are you going to do, go to one other competitor who does the same exact thing? - this means that average software quality in the industry has declined to the point where I would consider shipping it in that state to be actively harmful to the users and to the ecosystem at large (since others then build upon that pile of crap, which of course is a GIGO problem).

Now, you might argue that it doesn't matter because it's not the users who pay you, it's the company. But, well - some people have professional standards. It's rather unfortunate that this is apparently not compatible with "doing business" in this day and age, at least outside of very narrow niches.

[skydhash]

The things is most times, you are indeed buying the car that is going to make the delivery. And it's going to live in your garage. And if you're not careful, one day it will drive itself off a cliff, stall in the middle of a 10 hour drive, or you'll get robbed by individuals hiding in the trunk.

People that realize this care about their oil type and what tire they put on. People that do not, pay it forward when that crash does happen and they don't know how to recover, so queue up the war room, etc...

Even if you're not dogfooding your own software, if you do not take care of it properly, the cost of changes will climb up.

[carlosjobim]

> Even if you're not dogfooding your own software, if you do not take care of it properly, the cost of changes will climb up.

How do you mean? If the software works, then it's done. There is no maintenance and it will continue working like that for decades. It doesn't have corrosion and moving parts like a car. Businesses make sure not to touch it or the systems it is depending on.

[skydhash]

That would be fine if the dependencies were permanent. Hardware fail and need to be replaced. The OS will be upgraded (macOS is more than happy to make breaking changes). If the software is networked, that’s another transient plane. Libraries will fall out of support range.

Then there’s the fact that the user’s needs fluctuate. Imagine having to pay for a whole another software because the current code is spaghetti and full of hardcoded value and magic constants. It worked, but now you want a slight adjustment, but that can’t no longer be made unless you’re willing to rewrite the whole thing (and pay for it). That would be like having to buy a whole new car, because you moved to the house next door, as the car is hardwired to move only between your old place and where you work.

[carlosjobim]

In my opinion, the OS should not be updated. Not if important software is running on the machine. That's why we see cash registers still using Windows XP.

Sure, if you test it and see that there is no issue with updating, then you can update if you want. But neither the OS or the hardware or anything else should get any priority over the business-crucial software you are running. Even with hardware failures, the better option is to get older hardware for replacement if newer hardware has compatibility issues.

[ThrowawayR2]

> "...without somehow realizing that most of us have our jobs because we need to pay bills..."

Oh, I wouldn't say that. The hacker culture of the 1970s from which the word hacker originated often poked fun at incurious corporate programmers and IIRC even Edsger Dijkstra wrote a fair bit of acerbic comments about them and their disinterest in the craft and science of computing.

[whynotminot]

Well, most of them (the hackers from the 70s) probably did do it solely for the love of the game.

We’re 50 years past that now. We’re in the era of boot camps. I feel semi confident saying “most of us” meaning the current developer work force are here for well paying jobs.

Don’t get me wrong I like software development! I enjoy my work. And I think I’d probably like it better than most things I’d otherwise be doing.

But what I’ve been getting at is that I enjoy it for the solving problems part. The actual writing of code itself for me just happens to be the best way to enjoy problem solving while making good money that enables a comfortable life.

To be put it another way, if being a SWE paid a poverty wage, I would not be living in a trailer doing this for my love of coding. I would go be a different kind of engineer.

[Izkata]

> We’re in the era of boot camps.

I think bootcamp era was a decade ago and we're past it now. Not long ago I saw something on here about how a lot of them are closing down and attendance is dropping for the ones still open - likely because of LLMs.

[inglor_cz]

At 47, I am an older guy already. But in my generation, people who went on to be programmers usually started tinkering with code at ~ 11 y.o. (back then on ZX Spectrum and similar cheap beasts available in freshly post-Communist Europe) out of interest and passion, not because of "I want to build a lucrative career".

(Given how massively widespread piracy was back then, programming looked rather like a good way to do hard work for free.)

Money matters, but coders who were drawn into the field purely by money and are personally detached from the substance of the job is an unknown species for me.

"You can also solve problems as a local handyman"

That is NOT the same sort of talent. My fingers are clumsy; my mind is not.

[pjmlp]

At the edge of 50, similar experience.

Additionally in many countries, being a developer is an office worker like everyone else, there isn't SV lottery level salaries.

In fact, those of us that rather stay programmers beyond 30 years old are usually seen as failure, from society point of view, where is our hunger for career and climbing up the ladder?

Now the whole set of SaaS products, with low code integrations, that were already a bit depressing from programmer point of view, are getting AI agents as well.

It feels like coding as in the old days is increasingly being left for hobby coding, or a few selected ones working on industry infrastructure products/frameworks.

[bdangubic]

Hard agree, I am 51 and all of this resonates true with me except…

> That is NOT the same sort of talent. My fingers are clumsy; my mind is not.

if handyman work was paying $600/hr your fingers would un-clums themselves reaaaaaaly fast :)

[inglor_cz]

> if handyman work was paying $600/hr your fingers would un-clums themselves reaaaaaaly fast

I don't believe that. When it comes to motoric skills, including dancing etc., I am probably in the lowest quintile of the population.

Of course, I could become somewhat better by spending crazy amounts of time on training, but I would still be non-competitive even in comparison with an average person.

OTOH I am pretty good at writing prose/commentary, even though it is not a particulary lucrative activity, to the degree of being a fairly known author in Czechia. My tenth book is just out.

Talents are weird and seem to have mind of their own. I never planned to become an author, but something inside just wanted out. My first book was published just a few days shy of my 40th birthday, so not a "youthful experiment" by any means.

[whynotminot]

Just chiming in to say that in this — my era of AI Anxiety — it’s pretty cool you found something new and interesting to apply your talents to at 40.

It feels like we’re all going to have to have a reinvention or two ahead of us.

[jmkni]

Handyman work can pay very very well for those who are good at it

[jimbokun]

You owe your cushy job and big paycheck entirely to those tech-fetishists that came before you.

Secondly, you are very blind if you don’t see that the AI making your job “easier” is close to replacing you entirely, if you don’t also have a deep understanding of the code produced. What’s to stop the Project Manager from vibe coding you out of the loop entirely?

[bdangubic]

State of the industry both short and medium term is that you want to be the one doing replacing vs being the one being replaced. Not great but this is where we are at. If you are say SRE there are myriad of companies working hard to eliminate SREs but they need experts to set shit up so that SREs are not needed. Same thing will cascade to other Tech work, some faster than others. Career-wise I think it is wise now to position yourself as one that knows how to set shit up for the “great replacement”

[jimbokun]

Yes we are rapidly moving towards a time where bullshitting will be more valued than deep understanding and problem solving. Both LLMs and the broader culture are pushing in that direction.

[int_19h]

It's not an either-or. Doing the replacing with AI means that you're ripe for being replaced yourself. Indeed, what you do until then is likely to have a side effect of training the very model that eventually replaces you.

The real answer to this is collective action - unions etc - to push back against the lowering of the standards by our employees. But software engineers still seem to be broadly allergic to unions.

[whynotminot]

We all owe every part of everything to those who’ve come before us. That goes without saying, really.

> Secondly, you are very blind if you don’t see that the AI making your job “easier” is close to replacing you entirely, if you don’t also have a deep understanding of the code produced.

Brother don’t patronize me. I’m a senior engineer I’m not yeeting vibe code I don’t understand into prod.

I also understand the possibility of all of this potentially devaluing my labor or even wholesale taking my job.

What would you like me to do about that? Is me refusing to use the tools going to change that possibility?

Have yet to hear what else we should be doing about this. The hackernews answer appears to be some combination of petulance + burying head in the sand.

[jimbokun]

It’s simpler than that.

It’s more of a funeral, collective expression of grievance of a great, painful loss. An obituary for a glorious, short time in history where it was possible to combine a specific kind of intelligence, creativity, discipline, passion and values and be well compensated for it. A time when the ability to solve problems and solve them well had value. Not just being better at taking credit than other people.

It was wonderful.

I know you don’t care. So just go to some other forum where you don’t have to endure the whining of us who have lost something that was important to us.

[whynotminot]

I get it, but fundamentally this is a forum discussing technology, and AI is part of that. Especially as it relates to software engineering.

I come here to learn, discuss, and frankly, to hang onto a good life as long as I can have it.

The collective whinging in every AI topic is both annoying and self-defeating.

[balamatom]

>is both annoying and self-defeating

No brother. You are the one being annoyed by it, because you are the one doing nothing about it.

>What would you like me to do about that? Is me refusing to use the tools going to change that possibility?

What I know I refused 'em out of principle, turns out I'm doing fine. I also know for certain that had I not refused them, I would not be doing fine.

>to hang onto a good life as long as I can have it.

Trick question: do you think you deserve a good life?

What if there isn't enough good life for everyone, do you deserve it more than others?

Than which ones then?

>collective whinging

And this is why I think you don't.

The moment you began to perceive mass dissent as "collective whinging" was the moment the totalitarian singularity won you over.

And then it's an entirely different conversation, conducted by entirely different means of expression.

[whynotminot]

You still haven’t suggested anything practical to actually do. That’s a lot of words to say basically nothing.

[int_19h]

This is hacker news, supposedly.

And vibe coding is pretty much diametrically opposite to the hacker ethos.

[whynotminot]

Many of you don't seem to grasp that AI isn't a binary "don't use at all" or "all-in on pure slop" proposition. AI assisted development is not automatically vibe-coding.

Believe it or not, you can actually use these tools to level up your skills and understanding faster and then ship better code! Like with any powerful tool, it requires some care to use it correctly.

[jimbokun]

Then find another forum.

[whynotminot]

You don’t get to gatekeep this forum.

[NeutralCrane]

It’s not about not caring. It’s about accepting reality.

[balamatom]

Ok, enabler.

[veegee]

Sounds like a mediocre developer. No respect for people like you.

[whynotminot]

It’s a good thing I haven’t needed your respect so far to have a pretty successful career as a software engineer.

[0x457]

A bit harsh off a single post. I like solving problems, not just software engineering problems and I like writing code as a hobby, but I went to this job field only due to high salary and benefits.

In fact, I usually hate writing code at day job because it is boring things 20 out of 26 sprints.

[Barrin92]

>A bit harsh off a single post.

I don't think it is. Labeling passion and love for your work "tech fetishism", is spiritually bankrupt. Mind you we're in general here not talking about people working in a mine to survive, which is a different story.

But people who do have a choice in their career, doing something they have no love for solely to add more zeros to their bank account? That is the fetish, that is someone who has himself become an automaton. It's no surprise they seem to take no issues with LLMs because they're already living like one. Like how devoid of curiosity do you have to be to do something half your waking life that you don't appreciate if you're very likely someone who has the freedom to choose?

[NeutralCrane]

It definitely is. You are taking it way too far with your criticisms.

[0x457]

> Like how devoid of curiosity do you have to be to do something half your waking life that you don't appreciate if you're very likely someone who has the freedom to choose?

Do you understand work-life balance? I get paid to do the job, I satisfy my curiosities in my free-time.

> But people who do have a choice in their career, doing something they have no love for solely to add more zeros to their bank account?

Because I doubt finding a well paying job that you love is something that is achievable in our society, at least not for most people.

IMO, the real fetishization here is "work is something more than a way to get paid" that's a corporate propaganda I'm not falling for.

[Barrin92]

>Because I doubt finding a well paying job that you love is something that is achievable in our society,

Which is why I stressed twice, including in the part you chose to quote, that I am talking about people who can achieve that. If you have to take care of your sick grandmother, you don't need to feel addressed.

But if you did have the resources to choose a career, like many people who comment here, and you ended up a software developer completely devoid of passion for the craft you're living like a Severance character. You don't get to blame the big evil corporations for a lack of dedication to a craft. You don't need to work for one to be a gainfully employed programmer, and even if you do and end up on a deadbeat project, you can still love what you do.

This complete indifference to what you produce, complete alienation from work, voluntarily chosen is a diseased attitude.

[0x457]

> If you have to take care of your sick grandmother, you don't need to feel addressed.

That's not what am I saying at all. Unless you have Stockholm syndrome about your job, it's very hard to find a well paying job that you can love.