[potatolicious]

> and get something way better.

The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product.

Think back to the early smartphone days - every year phones multiplied in performance, in screen resolution, etc. In that environment a used item is less attractive because you feel like you're missing out on features/capability. This keeps used prices down. Nowadays used smartphones are more competitive because the rate of advancement (that buyers care about at least) has slowed.

For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices.

[numpad0]

> ... because the new product is that much better than the used product.

This starts reading like a hallucination after a while. How much in a Tesla had changed over past 5 years or so that makes 2020 model completely obsolete and unappealing relative to 2025 model?

The range hasn't doubled, internal volume hasn't, acceleration or braking hasn't. They may have changed implementations under the hood, but none has been clearly communicated to potential customers, so they might as well be the exact same car.

Meanwhile, 2020 Prius is that ugly one with quirky dashboard, and 2025 is that mustard yellow thing with the HUD-like dash.

So what in an EV is so "rapidly advancing technologically" so much that it perfectly rule out much more simpler explanation that people just aren't interested in EVs, in favor of more hand-wavy one that the newer EVs are just constantly enormously more appealing to the customers that older ones tend to lose the appeal faster?

[verdverm]

Look to BYD instead of Tesla if you want to find rapid advancement. Tesla has not been well managed for a few years, BYD recently passed them to become the biggest EV seller

I bought Hyundai, which charges 2x faster than the Tesla

Another thing to consider is the Tesla likely makes up the majority of the used EV inventory, and Tesla has become a toxic brand

[Spivak]

Sweet Jesus 1000 miles of range per hour is incredible. It might not technically solve the road trip problem but that's fast enough to make a not even five minute pit stop to get you home. Any range anxiety for intra-city travel is just gone.

[zer00eyz]

> BYD recently passed them to become the biggest EV seller

Well when your government subsides every sale, and your the cheapest product on the market this is a natural outcome.

Mass strikes by workers (in china). Fires (a lot of them). Recalls (several this year). And now massive tariffs for them in a lot of markets don't paint a picture that they have a sustainable business.

We all know that subsidized growth is a great way to build a business (see ridesharing, delivery, in the US) but it doesn't make consumers happy in the end when prices go up and service quality goes down.

[Spivak]

Having ridden in a lot of BYDs when traveling overseas I think you paint too bleak a picture. They're everywhere and reliable enough to seemingly be the preferred cars for uber drivers. Some markets might tax them out of existence but I expect others will gladly take perfectly serviceable cars on the cheap.

Tesla is still kicking and they had all the same problems at one time or another. I mean until this year we also massively subsidized every EV sale so pot calling the kettle black.

[zer00eyz]

> I mean until this year we also massively subsidized every EV sale so pot calling the kettle black.

There is a big difference between domestic subsidies and export subsidies.

One is a policy to promote adoption the other is akin to economic warfare.

[theshackleford]

> There is a big difference between domestic subsidies and export subsidies.

Nice goalpost shifting.

[Sohcahtoa82]

> I bought Hyundai, which charges 2x faster than the Tesla

Your Hyundai charges at 500 kW?

[verdverm]

There's more to charging than peak kW, notably sustained throughput

The amount of range you can put into the EV, per unit of time, is a better metric.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html

Hyundai has been on the 800V arch for a while with their E-GMP platform, Tesla's first entry is the 25th spot.

[Sohcahtoa82]

Huh...that is interesting. TIL.

I wonder why the Tesla is not able to maintain the high charging rate? Both peak at about the same kW.

[dboreham]

I don't think that's true. Afaik Tesla (except Cybertruck) have 400V charging limited to 250kW while the other vehicles have 800V charging allowing 350kW or so.

[bmicraft]

Maybe the car is more efficient and it's twice the rate in "driveable distance-charged" per unit of time?

[numpad0]

I've seen more lamborghinis than privately owned BYDs at this point. Maybe it's just where I'm from, but consumers definitely aren't switching to BYD, around myself.

[dboreham]

Recently in Singapore and Hong Kong. Roughly as many BYD as Teslas there.

[theshackleford]

> Maybe it's just where I'm from

I mean it's pretty obviously this. You don't become the worlds largest EV seller if nobody is buying.

[jopsen]

I think it's also fair to argue that it's probably more perceived, than actual.

People are obsessed with EV range, and massively concerned that used EV have degraded batteries.

Most likely there are some market inefficiencies here. Good for you, buy a cheap used EV ;)

Also many EVs are still not attractive to price sensitive consumers. And the price insensitive ones, won't buy used EV.

[PunchyHamster]

> The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product.

And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one

> For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices.

The previous gen is 8 years old. It took 8 years to "double" the quality, not 2

[potatolicious]

Listen, I'm literally just describing basic market dynamics here - my post is not intended as an endorsement of plainly observable phenomena.

The depreciation/utility curve has always been aggressive no matter what product you're buying. Is a 2 year-old ICE car twice as bad as a new one? Is a 2 year-old TV? Clearly not, yet they are all worth that in the open market.

For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements. Are the advancements worth buying new? I dunno! You tell me - but this is clearly being reflected in the market.

From a strict utilitarian standpoint, optimizing your depreciation/utility function should mean you're buying almost every single thing used. But yet lots of people don't do that. Humans are empirically not very good utilitarians!

[hcknwscommenter]

>For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements.

And many comments disagree with this statement. There are few perceived advancements. Used EVs are not trusted, particularly because the used battery fear.

[Terr_]

> And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one

The new-vs-used price difference in equipment comes from multiple factors, of which "better features" is one part.

Consider what would happen if you gave someone this choice:

1. Keep your 10-year-old car. (No major upgrades from stock.)

2. Pay $X to trade it for its identical factory-sibling which was made the same day but was stored in a timeless stasis-bubble until today, so that it still has its original new-car smell.

I can't imagine anyone saying: "Well, there are zero new features, so I'll swap them for $0."

P.S.: The issues are even more obvious if the person is choosing between buying someone else's 10-year-old car versus paying an extra premium for the time-warp one, because there's uncertainty about the first vehicle's history and maintenance.

[apelapan]

Yeah, because a car has tens of thousands of parts that age with both time and usage. The core drivetrain is just a tiny bit of that.

Everything is falling apart and that makes and old, used car... Used and old. Now queue the people who show up to say they haven't changed a tire or wind screen wiper blade on their 2012 Model S/Camry and can't perceive a single difference to when they were new from factory.

[jansper39]

Range though is only one aspect to take into account when quantifying the "quality".

[eikenberry]

What part of EVs is "rapidly advancing technologically"? The battery is the only thing that comes to mind and they should be replaceable if that was the bottleneck. Self-driving is also advancing, but that hasn't stabilized as a feature yet. EV motors have been around for a long time and the rest seems like general car stuff that would be common with ICEs.

Following that logic it seems to come down to old batteries which aren't as good both due to technological advances and battery aging. If so, why aren't used dealers just including a battery swap in the price?

[jacobr1]

> If so, why aren't used dealers just including a battery swap in the price?

I think that is the main thing that needs to be figured out. I suspect the problem is that you need to get OEM battery replacements for older model cars and those aren't yet readily available or cheap. We are going to need aftermarket batteries to drive price competition in the market. The current car manufacturers aren't incentivised to support a secondary market when they are still focused on primary sales. Also not in the ICE market there is much more ability to scale capacity. The supply chain constraints for EVs, and batteries are much tighter, though that keeps getting better.

[jansper39]

Battery swaps are never going to be a thing long term, even with Nio rolling it out in areas. It adds huge amounts of weight and complexity. You have to build electrical and coolant connectors which can handle large amounts of connects and disconnects, in areas that get mucky and interact with rain, salt, snow and ice. You have to build a chassis strong enough to take an impact but also support the additional weight and space that a removable battery takes up - think of how much bigger phones with removable batteries.

I have done 900 mile road trips in EVs with 150Kw charging (low by standards of newer EVs) and charging has been a complete non problem. In fact I have more problems with plugging my car in, going to the toilet and coming back finding that I've put more power into the car than I wanted.

Batteries are lasting 200k+ miles with 85-90% original capacity in so longevity is not a problem and charging is becoming a solved problems in an increasingly large portion of the world too.

[Dylan16807]

You put this in the wrong place. "Battery swap" in this context should be read like "transmission swap". Hours of work replacing a permanent part. Nothing to do with detachable batteries.

[econ]

Hybrids keep their value remarkably well. If each engine isn't spinning half the time they will obviously last longer. They could have a small enough battery that make hot swapping a lot more realistic.

[Peanuts99]

Why not just have more rapid charging and do away with the ICE engine and small hybrid battery altogether.

[potatolicious]

> "What part of EVs is "rapidly advancing technologically"?"

Battery capacity, motor efficiency (getting more range out of the same battery), charging rate (800V architectures for example that let you charge > 150kW), battery chemistry (wider operating temp envelope, affects charging and driving efficiency depending on environment)... the list goes on.

The batteries are also getting cheaper - which is to say for the same $ you're now (generally) getting a larger battery.

> "If so, why aren't used dealers just including a battery swap in the price?"

Because the batteries are in fact not swappable from one gen to the next, because the power electronics around them are different, peak current draw is different (and that depends on the motor it's mated with!).

Like I know it's tempting and attractive to imagine EVs like regular cars with some giant-ass AA batteries installed on them, but that's not how they work! The battery is specced as a unit with the entire electrical system and drive motor options!

[maxerickson]

The battery electronics aren't necessarily all that complicated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZHN3fjDtpc

The precharge resistor has to be reasonably matched with the devices connected to the battery though.

And of course there could be additional converting electronics for charging or whatever.

[thatfrenchguy]

If you look at EPA efficiency in 2020 and 2025, it hasn’t really moved that much for the same class of vehicle.

[koolba]

> Like I know it's tempting and attractive to imagine EVs like regular cars with some giant-ass AA batteries installed on them, but that's not how they work!

Come on, we all know the big Christmas toys would always use those fat C batteries that we never had enough of.

[bluescrn]

Batteries need to be split into several replaceable modules, so the entire car isn't a write-off if there's a fault or damage affecting the battery

Ideally, these battery modules would be standardised and used across a wide range of vehicles.