[aquova]

I've seen a few posters ask already, so I figured I'd answer what the PS2 analog button's function was.

The button switches between two modes of the analog joysticks, either to behave with their normal functionality, or to simply be a digital input (so just round all movement to either up/down/left/right). For PS2 games, you typically wouldn't want to do this. Instead, the functionality exists because the PS2 was backwards compatible with PS1 titles. The original PS1 controller didn't have analog sticks at all, just the D-Pad for navigation. After a few years (and the success of Nintendo's N64 analog controller) Sony released a revised version of the controller that included two joysticks, which their controllers still mimic to this day. However, those PS1 games released prior to the analog controller wouldn't always behave correctly if you tried to use an analog input scheme, so Sony added a mode to allow the Joysticks to function the same as the D-Pad, in case players preferred it.

Other fun fact, the analog controller was not the same as their more famous Dualshock controller. There was a short-lived PS1 Dual Analog controller which just added the joysticks. It only lasted a few months before Sony replaced it with one that supported rumble functionality (also after being inspired by the N64), this was the Dualshock.

[mikepurvis]

I had a PS2 slim years ago and was annoyed that it wouldn’t let me use a “dual analog” controller I had kicking around to play PS2 games, eg for second player. Seemed like an unnecessarily hostile move to force an upgrade there when all the functionality other than rumble was clearly present.

But of course it’s the same now on PS5. I still have my PS4 pads and use them to round out 4p couch coop for broforce, overcooked, moving out, etc, but actual PS5 games will only work with PS5 pads.

[Tsiklon]

The DualShock/DualAnalog were not quite the same as the DualShock 2, the face buttons on the DualShock 2 were advertised as being pressure sensitive. Some games were capable of using this.

[scott_w]

Funnily enough, this caused issues with PS2 games ported to Xbox subsequently. Metal Gear Solid 2 made heavy use of the pressure sensitive buttons for weapon aiming vs shooting. I recall the Xbox didn't have pressure sensitive buttons, so had to do something different to achieve this (I'd need someone else to fill in the gaps here, I never owned an Xbox!)

[rideontime]

Original Xbox had the pressure-sensitive buttons, but 360 did not, which specifically caused issues for MGS 2 and 3 in the HD Collection. Twin Snakes on the Gamecube suffered similarly, requiring awkward combinations of Y and A to lower your pistol or raise your automatic weapon without firing.

[butlike]

THAT'S WHY. As an avid Metal Gear enthusiast during the release of MGS2, I remember having nearly-impossible time finding MGS2 Substance for PS2 when I wanted to do my first real replay way back in the day. I imagine it was the more popular version since it had working pressure buttons, presumably.

[thunderfork]

The original Xbox actually did have pressure sensitive face buttons. Off the top of my head, the only game I know that used them is Vexx (which strangely didn't use them on the PS2...)

[mikepurvis]

The PS3 had those too, but they were dropped for the PS4 and PS5. I did read that it caused a few headaches for the classics ported forward.

Speaking of oddball controller features, I was a bit surprised the PS5 retained the little trackpad, given how little use it seemed to get on the PS4— even in obvious situations like Assassins Creed where you're moving an on-screen cursor around a map, but only with the thumbstick.

[lloeki]

> actual PS5 games will only work with PS5 pads

So IIUC the PS4 gamepad can be used but only for PS4 games? That is ridiculous.

Meanwhile I'm rocking an original release day Xbox One controller on a Series X.

That said while I can understand them dropping X360 witeless due to protocol changes I'm still bitter that the X360 wired accessories were simply denied on the Xone, notably the whole Rock Band stuff as well as steering wheels.

[gambiting]

>>So IIUC the PS4 gamepad can be used but only for PS4 games? That is ridiculous.

It's because PS5 games can use the adaptive triggers functionality that is impossible to emulate on the PS4 controller. For example in Ratchet and Clank short pull on the trigger fires the gun, there is artifical resistance past that point, but if you pull past it it will fire the secondary weapon mode. On a PS4 controller you'd just fire the secondary mode all the time because there would be no way to find the threshold on a trigger without this functionality.

Of course games could be designed around this and support both - but Sony avoided placing such a requirement on devs so all PS5 games are presumed to be using a PS5 controller when going through cert.

[lloeki]

> On a PS4 controller you'd just fire the secondary mode all the time because there would be no way to find the threshold on a trigger without this functionality.

Just don't mash the trigger all the way? You don't have the haptic feedback of such a trigger wall but claiming it's "impossible" is a bit extreme. A nice threshold mapping could arrange for that e.g 0-10% dead zone, 10%-80% main mode, 90%-100% secondary mode, _ factor in rate of press to avoid misfiring main mode. Which is probably the logic that it implements already, except with probably a bit more leeway thanks to the haptic feedback.

"Impossible" would be playing a typical† dual stick game with a gamepad that has none (e.g original PS1 gamepad)

† like a FPS that uses the now classic stick layout for quick yet precise movement + orientation

Honest question as I'm curious and don't have access to a PS5: what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?

Oh and to be clear: it's not a Xbox vs PS thing, I find them both equally guilty of excessive e-wasting / platform locking, just in different ways.

[gambiting]

Ehhh let me put it in a different way - it's not impossible, of course. But it's about the fact that if someone is using a PS4 controller and they don't know about this, then they are going to have a bad time. And no dev wants their players to have a bad time, and neither does the platform holder. So they would rather just say no, you as a dev don't have to worry about this - every player will use a PS5 controller, done.

>>what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?

Sure, Ratchet and Clank has a PC version now which can be played with any controller, including a PS4 or xbox controller. Obviously for this version it was remapped to make sense when using such controllers.

Again, it's not about actual literal impossibility - it's Sony's choice to say "look we want to promote features of the PS5, so code your gameplay features to make use of the adaptive triggers and we guarantee that every player will have a ps5 controller. You don't need to code your game to support older pads" - so devs don't. They obviously do on platforms like PC where the player might be using anything.

[ziml77]

What was remapped for PC? I don't have a PS5 so PC is how I played R&C:RA and I don't recall there being any difference in how the trigger pulls were interpreted between having adaptive triggers enabled or disabled.

[CaptainOfCoit]

> Honest question as I'm curious and don't have access to a PS5: what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?

Games that use PS5-exclusive features when played on PS5 obviously don't use those features when not run on a PS5, if it's been ported.

While your idea sounds neat in practice, with those thresholds and such, I'm not sure how practical it is in real-life. Lots of controllers eventually start reporting somewhat inaccurate values, sometimes rather large variance, so whatever you end up using as the actual values, they tend to not be perfect for everyone, so then the game will appear really buggy, almost broken.

I'm guessing they're favoring "works 100% for everyone who can run it" rather than "Kind of works for most people, broken for the rest".

[c-hendricks]

> It's because PS5 games can use the adaptive triggers functionality

IIRC those can be disabled at the system level, and when streaming a PS5 game to a PS4 guess what, the DualShock 4 works fine.

[gambiting]

True, I have done that many times. So you're right that there is an inconsistency there - but Sony always treated remote streaming as a special case.

[mikepurvis]

It's totally reasonable to expect the native pad for single player games; my contention is more around couch multiplayer scenarios. When each pad costs as much as a day 1 game, it's a big investment to have four of them— so most players have just one or two.

As it turns out, there aren't all that many couch multiplayer games that are PS5-only, and a lot of what's there is two player only (Diablo 3/4, BG3, Hot Wheels, Borderlands, etc). So maybe the whole argument is moot, but the long and short of it is that any game which I think I might want to play with more than two people I buy on Switch instead, since I'm always going to have lots of those pads.

[xattt]

I don’t get why backward compatibility is even expected, other than a nice-to-have. Historically, gamepads weren’t portable between generations of systems.

I’ve got a Logitech steering wheel that I can’t use on 64-bit Windows because of the way the driver was implemented.

[tristor]

Because we all know that under the covers it's just Bluetooth and USB, and they don't have a good reason. Especially in Xbox world, where while the hardware on an Xbox Series X is more powerful than an Xbox One, the software is largely the same.

[lloeki]

Nitpick: Xbox One controllers communicate using a proprietary WiFi Direct protocol. Bluetooth is only there for pairing with other devices.

[cubefox]

Strange analog stick fact: According to YouTuber Wulff Den, the first ever game that used an analog stick for third-person camera rotation was only Super Mario Sunshine in 2002. A GameCube game that came out more than two years after the release of the PS2, and several years after the N64 and the PS1 Dual Analog controller.

I guess some ideas seem only obvious in hindsight.

[aquova]

I scoffed when I first read this, but the more I think about it, the more that might be correct.

Mario 64 had third-person camera movement, but it was with the N64's C-buttons, and had fixed angles, not free movement. Since it didn't have a second joystick, that rules out the N64 (some games did allow you to use a second controller as a second analog stick, but I don't think any third person games did so).

Likewise, the Dreamcast didn't have a second stick, so it's ruled out too. That basically leaves us with the PS1 or an early PS2/Gamecube game. Apparently Quake II on PS1 did allow for the second stick to aim, but that's not third person. The closest I can find is Ico on PS2, which allowed for analog stick camera movement, but I think only in the horizontal direction. Mario Sunshine might well be the first for full camera angle movement, which honestly really surprises me.

[entropicdrifter]

Just piling on to say that there was also Alien: Resurrection on PS1 that used the modern dual-stick movement/aiming setup. It was one of the first FPSes to do so, at least as the default control scheme. Reviewers at the time mostly hated it and called it awkward, probably because they were comparing non-aim-assisted console FPS controls to PC FPSes of the era, which is kind of fair tbh. The game's difficulty was also probably too high for the time, especially given the brand-new control style.

[cubefox]

Yeah but the comment you are replying to, and the one before that, talk about third-person games, not first-person games.

Regarding Alien Resurrection: Turok (another FPS game which came out a few years earlier) also had modern FPS controls as default, though movement was done with the d-pad, as the N64 didn't have two sticks.

[cfcfcf]

And inverted the Y-Axis too, which I still do today thanks to this game, I think.

[CaptainOfCoit]

I don't think that's true, I remember playing both Jak and Daxter and Ico in either 2000 or 2001 and I think both of those had camera control with the right-hand analog stick.

[cubefox]

This one says camera rotation for Jak and Daxter is mapped on the R/L buttons: https://jakanddaxter.fandom.com/wiki/Daxter_controls

But Ico indeed used the stick for the camera: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/ICO/Controls

However, I'm not sure whether it was only used for horizontal rotation or full arbitrary rotation (arbitrary combinations of horizontal and vertical) as in Super Mario Sunshine. But it might very well be the first game to have that, not Mario Sunshine.

[CaptainOfCoit]

> This one says camera rotation for Jak and Daxter is mapped on the R/L buttons: https://jakanddaxter.fandom.com/wiki/Daxter_controls

Seems wrong too, archived manual (https://archive.org/details/ps2_Jak_and_Daxter-_The_Precurso...) seems to say "RIGHT ANALOG STICK ... Camera Rotate/Zoom" under the game controls. I think the page you linked to is for another game.

[cubefox]

I just looked at a few videos and it seems that the analog stick does indeed move the camera, though apparently only horizontally, not "freely" with arbitrary rotations. I'm not sure though.

[CaptainOfCoit]

How is that different from Super Mario Sunshine? It was probably two decades ago I last played it, but I think it was the same.

[ChoGGi]

Turok from 1997 let you use the dpad for movement and stick to look/aim.

Edit: Oh, sorry didn't see you mention third person.

[nemomarx]

I've read some early reviews of a licensed alien shooter where they complain about how confusing the control scheme is - left stick for movement and right for aim.

Before Halo it wasn't really intuitive I guess?

[cubefox]

Yeah, that's another point: the modern first-person controls you describe were once thought to be counterintuitive compared to the old Wolfenstein style controls.

A similar point holds for third-person games: Before Super Mario 64, all third-person games had Wolfenstein style tank controls where left/right rotates the character in place and up/down makes it move forward/backward. E.g. Tomb Raider or Mega Man Legends. The idea to make character movement relative to the camera viewpoint wasn't obvious.

(Though the Tomb Raider developers tried to work around this to a degree by fixing the camera behind the character, which prevented to most counterintuitive control issues Mega Man Legends had, but also meant free camera rotation was impossible.)

[ChoGGi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Resurrection_(video_game...

(For anyone else curious)

[nemomarx]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/3du770/alien_resurr...

and the particular quote I was thinking of for the record.

[ziml77]

That's really strange because that setup was effectively the default for N64 games. Stick under your left thumb for movement and the C buttons under your right thumb for camera control

[cubefox]

It's not strange because it's not really true. The default controls both of GoldenEye and Perfect Dark used the stick for moving forward/backward and turning left/right. Turok did use the c buttons for walking and the stick for looking though.

[ziml77]

Forgive me sounding like Claude, but you’re absolutely right! I’ve played platformers from that era recently but it’s been a long time since I touched the shooters. I was mixing them up in my recollection. The shooters had a weird mix and for some reason even though Goldeneye had a bunch of control scheme options, none of them let you put all movement on one input and all camera control on the other.

[cubefox]

I'm pretty sure both GoldenEye and Perfect Dark had (non default) control options where movements were on the d-pad and camera on the analog stick. For GoldenEye see "Solitaire" and "Goodnight" here: https://goldeneye.fandom.com/wiki/Control_style

[xandrius]

Omg, I remember exactly that intermediate joystick. It was lighter than the dualshock, so when you held a dualshock it felt cool, especially when it started rumbling!

[Lammy]

I really like the concave analog sticks on that controller. The convex DualShock ones get slippery as hell once the controller is a few years old.

The analog face buttons of the DualShock 2 are cool in concept but always made me press too hard out of fear of not getting up to full speed or whatever in games that used face buttons for acceleration (mostly Burnout 3 and Revenge for me) https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/List_of_console...

[alias_neo]

> analog face buttons of the DualShock 2 are cool in concept but always made me press too hard

The amount of hand pain this one feature all those years ago has caused.

To this day I find my self having to loosen my grip and press the face buttons lighter because it makes no difference now.

(Though PS5 has added a whole new level of hand ache with adaptive trigger resistance).

[malnourish]

I love the adaptive triggers. I have all the consoles and a gaming PC and will buy games on PS5 because of them. I think it adds an interesting tactile element that also improves playability.

[alias_neo]

I love them as a feature, I think they're really cool, but I find some games like Horizon (with the Bow)... I'm failing to think of others at the moment as I haven't played in a while... cause ache after a relatively short gaming session.

Maybe I just need to look into reducing the "resistance" of them in the settings.

[lynguist]

Same with the original Sixaxis PS3 controller without rumble! I liked that lightweight controller a lot!

It was also short lived and replaced with the PS3’s version with rumble included – they were saying it’s because of a patent dispute.

[windward]

So it's unrelated to the analog face buttons?

[CaptainOfCoit]

I don't know what "face buttons" are, but the Analog button only toggles how the Joysticks work, toggling between sending Analog or Digital signals.

[extraduder_ire]

The buttons on the front of a playstation controller (d-pad, cross/circle/triangle/square) were pressure sensitive on the ps2/ps2.

256 levels on the ps2, 1024 on the ps3. Few games used this outside of racing games, and they were removed from the ps4 controller. It's most commonly noticed when configuring a ps3 controller on a PC.