[itg]

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

[AnonymousPlanet]

Android is losing a unique selling point. This will have an impact on what a techie may recommend to a non-techie in the future, because everything is beige now.

I have the feeling Google has given up on using nerds as beachheads. The market is saturated enough and they don't need us anymore to do grass roots spreading of their products. It's the same with Youtube. As long as there were enough people who were unencumbered by ads because of their ad block and kept spreading links, the importance of Youtube was growing. After market saturation that vehicle isn't necessary anymore and they can squeeze them out.

[echelon]

This is unacceptable.

Google needs to be broken up. Apple too.

The lack of antitrust enforcement is a clown show.

We have no choice in the most important computing category in the world. It's a duopoly and they have everyone in straightjackets - consumers, companies, competitors, governments, ...

A huge percentage of the world's thoughts and economy flow through mobile. And two companies own it.

Ma Bell was nothing compared to this.

[gizmo686]

Breaking up Google will not help in this particular case. The problem is entirely within the Android unit; and would still be present even if Android were to be split off into it's own company.

It certainly seems like there is problematic behavior in the restrictions Google puts on OEMs that want to use Android (or, more specifically, play services) on their devices. However, I think it would take a different enforcement mechanism to address that.

[Palmik]

Disabling the ability to install arbitrary apps, like ReVanced, etc. benefits other parts of Alphabet.

In general, making anti consumer decisions is also easier when you know you can fall back on income from other units.

[spwa4]

Then why does Google make so few anti-consumer decisions? I mean, compare Google with Facebook. Surely we can agree Google is the better behaved of those two.

Apple only allows software on their macbooks and mac mini, and every release of MacOS it's more locked down. Everything else, from iPhone to the watch, is 100% locked down. Likewise, every version of Windows tries, again and again and again, to lock down programs that can be run. People absolutely don't accept it, but they do try (remember when they tried to bury the ability to run unverified apps behind a price hike?)

I'd at least give it a shot to simply appeal to Google on the justification they give. After all, the blogpost ... It is very strange for Google to do what they do in that blogpost, don't you think?

https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2025/08/elevating-...

"In Brazil, the Brazilian Federation of Banks (FEBRABAN) sees ..."

"Indonesia's Ministry of Communications and Digital Affairs praising it for providing a “balanced approach” that ..."

"Thailand’s Ministry of Digital Economy and Society sees it as a “positive and proactive measure” that aligns ..."

"Developer’s Alliance have called this a “critical step” for ..."

And it's easy to come up with other government requirements, like the DMA (yes, ironically) and ChatControl that require vendors are able to disable apps.

Clearly there is more than a little government pressure on Google to do this, including US and EU lobby groups (Developer's Alliance). Clearly Google is unwilling or unable to resist government pressure to allow governments to control which apps get to run ... Has anyone even asked these groups why they push for this?

[disgruntledphd2]

> I mean, compare Google with Facebook. Surely we can agree Google is the better behaved of those two.

I'm not sure I agree, particularly with respect to their core businesses. Like Google basically own all parts of the ad stack and use that dominance to compete unfairly against basically everyone else, causing them to appear to be a better service. There was even an anti-trust case about it (up for sentencing at the moment, here's hoping for a breakup).

Facebook have certainly done a bunch of nefarious stuff, but Google is just a more useful product to the people who come here (and I agree with this), so they get more of a pass.

[Palmik]

I have no doubt that there are strong external forces that are pressuring Google to do this. The fact that Google also benefits from it makes it less likely for them to put up much of fight, don't you think?

[echelon]

A smartphone is essential to operate in the modern world. Facebook is not necessary at all.

Google and Apple are holding the entire world hostage.

I can't even order food at half the restaurants I visit any more without a Google or Apple device. They're all using smart phone QR code menus. It's absurd.

Imagine what happens when they're the only way to pay. When they're the only form of government ID.

Do we really want these devices to be locked down and not owned by us? This much responsibility should be a business liability imposed by the governments of the world, not unlimited permission to tax and coerce without impunity.

Imagine if your government was as free as your smartphone. We wouldn't have elections. We'd have no freedom, no peace of mind, forever renters. Bad choices would be imposed upon us as defaults. The government would make us more dependent upon them. If we had a business, we'd be taxed 30%, told we couldn't have a relationship with the customer, made to jump through frequent hoops, deal with constant friction, have to pay protection racket money to avoid ads, have everything we do monitored and controlled, be subject to takedown whenever and for whatever reason, not be allowed to issue updates or use our own technology, have the government themselves compete with us and look at our data...

The governments of the world need to end this.

[AnonymousPlanet]

I believe this is an important puzzle piece for understanding the rapid shifts that are currently taking place. Thank you for laying it out so clearly.

[pg3uk]

Ads.

[goku12]

A smaller company would at least be less capable of ignoring the fines or the loss of market share. Or in other words, "too big to fail".

[ulrikrasmussen]

"Too big to fail" usually refers to companies such as banks that are such integral parts of the financial infrastructure that governments must bail them out when they screw up. In Google's case I would rather call it "too big to care", because every fine they get is basically a rounding error.

[1718627440]

They are also "too big to be regulated", which I would include in the "too big to fail" category.

[bamboozled]

It would be great if open source could some how solve this better. Like it's a shame UX / UI seems to be difficult for open source people to master, because I would really love a great open source phone without android on it.

[crossroadsguy]

Yes! Android doesn’t need an USP. Not anymore now that we have a stable equilibrium of this perfect duopoly.

[XorNot]

F-droid routinely delivers me higher quality, more reliable apps that do exactly what I need then to do too.

It's become my go-to for "I need a utility for X task".

[Grimblewald]

Same here. F droid gives clean functional and reliable apps while playstore is a dumpsterfire.

[jamesnorden]

>I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them

I, too, love vendor lockin.

[scbzzzzz]

It is not just that. In my case , everyone around me are using iphone . I made the sacrifice to not easily connect with them and use android so that i have freedom ( to install, customise what ever). Once that freedom aspect is taken away. There is no reason for me to make that sacrifice.

Until EU's cross compatibility between messaging apps is passed, we are forced to be in vendor lockin.

[zylstra]

I have no idea why iMessage and FaceTime are draws when Signal is available.

[ddoeth]

I want to preface this by saying that I use almost only signal, but I do get the appeal. Walking out of the house and switching from wifi to mobile is so smooth, signal always takes a hot minute to reconnect, but with facetime (and for that matter meet and whatsapp video calls) you barely get a stutter. For the most part it really is a "it just works" solution whereas signal sometimes feels a little klunky. I don't mind, but I get that people value that.

[_aavaa_]

For messages not much reason, for video the comparison is a joke.

[Marsymars]

One major thing Signal is missing is CarPlay (and Android Auto) functionality.

[SR2Z]

Also all of the people I text, which is the real issue :)

[estimator7292]

I mean, we have mandatory Play Store services, so the experience on android is not significantly less locked-in.

[opan]

LineageOS without gapps (no microg even) works fine. Very few apps require play services. I think everything from F-Droid works.

[drnick1]

Yes, Lineage and Graphene are far more usable than people without first hand experience imagine. The vast majority of Android apps just work. Some may display a warning when first launched about custom ROMs being "unsupported" (like Whatsapp), but then just work as expected. A few users also report broken notifications (those that use Google's library to implement them), but it's a minor inconvenience, at least for someone like me who dislikes notifications.

And there are many great apps available on these free Android devices that are simply not available on "official" builds such as NewPipe, because Google obviously doesn't want you to block ads on Youtube.

[heavyset_go]

> LineageOS

This frog is being boiled

[greekrich92]

The market for that is extremely niche and Google is going to make that less and less practical as it closes off AOSP source availability

[vivalahn]

Another road that leads to BBM it seems.

It’s utterly bizarre how BBM could have been the iMessage and WhatsApp and who knows what else. But rich out-of-touch people thinking exclusivity is a perk in a commodities market just shows how business savvy and wealth are in reality disconnected from eachother.

[j45]

BBM was the iMessage and WhatsApp before either of those.

WhatsApp became popular specifically because it was a multi-platform replacement for BBM.

BBM had little else to offer in terms of apps. It was a corporate ecosystem and good at that part of it.

iMessage also came out after BBM, and did their own device lock in, except iPhones were designed for the many instead of the few, especially beginners to smartphones.

[scrlk]

In 2012, Jim Balsillie (then co-CEO of RIM with Mike Lazaridis) had actually planned this, but the board rejected the idea: https://www.theregister.com/2012/04/13/balsillie_plan_open_b...

[stackskipton]

BBM could have been great lock in IF OS and Hardware experience was not so bad.

For vast majority, Android vs iPhone is not massively different so iMessage availability is a draw for some people.

[vivalahn]

BBM itself should not have been a lock-in. It would have taken incredibly little effort to open it as a desktop messenger that can seamlessly interact with people who have BBM numbers for example.

I doubt they learned their lessons. Apple walked all over them in so many ways and, if memory serves me right, they even mocked Steve Jobs over the iPhone.

Edit: just so I’m clear I’m discussing it from the perspective of early to mid 2000s. iPhone hadn’t yet come out, but iPods were popular. Trillian and Pidgin were dominating the online landscape of software that could support multiple chat protocols - seamless ICQ, AIM, IRC, Yahoo, MSN Messenger, all in one program. If there was a time for RIM to corner the market here it was right then and there because BBM was the real deal, being available on phones and they could have signed agreements with others to bring it to, for example, Nokia and Motorola and whoever else.

But no. They’d rather be arrogant and stupid.

[vanviegen]

> they even mocked Steve Jobs over the iPhone.

Isn't that just doing their jobs as executives for a competitor?

Though internally, one would hope they were sounding some alarm bells. Though at the time, it wasn't at all obvious that people could get used to doing relatively serious typing on a small (even tiny back then) virtual keyboard.

[mcny]

Time after time we believe people in important places have some higher knowledge or some deeper insight. However, more likely, they were just regular people who were in the right place at the right time. I don't think they understood what they were up against. Neither did Nokia / Microsoft with Windows Phone.

[falcor84]

Just to assist perplexed netizens like myself, apparently in addition to being an acronym for Big Beautiful Men, BBM also stands for BlackBerry Messenger [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBM_(software)

[thaumasiotes]

Weird. If I wanted to send messages from my BlackBerry, I used AIM. I had no awareness of BBM (despite owning a BlackBerry), nor would it have provided nonzero value even if I had heard of it.

This does not suggest to me that BBM was somehow positioned for mass adoption. There was no problem for it to solve. It was worse than the existing messaging landscape.

(If I had wanted to send a message to someone else whose only mode of communication was their BlackBerry, a situation that never arose, I would have emailed them. Convenient email was the BlackBerry's entire marketing strategy. Note that this works just as well on smartphones today.)

[noarchy]

We got BBM on Android and iOS. Alas, by then it was mostly too late. It got some initial traction but that didn't last.

[xandrius]

Check UbuntuTouch, it's really a nice third option. The OS is refreshing and the dev community active.

We do not have to choose the lesser of two evils this time.

[MattyRad]

I glanced at Ubuntu Touch, but its device compatibility looked severely lacking (https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/).... I have old Pixel phones I could potentially try it out on, but the last Pixel phone that is officially supported is the 3a. So that is a bummer.

[xandrius]

Device compatibility is not a feature occurred naturally, it's the result of people wanting and then working to get it supported.

So, if you're interested in adding more devices, join the community and see what you can do!

[Lutzb]

Chicken egg situation. I would be interested to contribute, but I cannot run it on any of my devices. Alas I am not contributing.

[d3Xt3r]

There are decent Linux phones you can buy now, such as the FuriPhone FLX1 (Debian), Volla Quintus (Ubuntu Touch), Jolla C2 (SailfishOS) etc. The best part is that all of them also support running Android apps (via Waydroid or similar compatibility layer), so you get the best of both worlds.

[p0w3n3d]

Just buy a FairPhone. That's what I'm considering to buy ATM.

[doug_durham]

"Refreshing" is an interesting adjective to use. I don't want a refreshing OS. I want a rock stable OS that sips battery.

[xandrius]

There are so many ways one can go about telling people that Android and iOS are not the only viable options for a mobile OS.

If an adjective is sufficient to make you fall back to the mean then there wasn't much one can do to convince you, I'm afraid.

[cons0le]

I wonder if banking and messaging apps will work on it in the future

[jolmg]

Re: banking, not until adoption of non-Android and non-iOS devices grows. To break this chicken and egg problem, one can get an Android phone and use it exclusively for the banking app, treating it like one of those hardware security keys the banks used to give out in the early 2010s. One used to just leave it at home; maybe take it to work occasionally. Another option is to live like the early 2000s and go to an ATM/bank for all bank things, including account consultation.

[WD-42]

Or use the banks website from a computer? Which banks do not allow this?

[gt0]

My bank in Australia has a great desktop website, but you have to do 2FA on your phone to access it. That means even though I prefer to use the desktop site, I still need to be able to run the app too.

[edg5000]

The biggest bank in the Netherlands at least requires the app to confirm payments. Although they do still have these paper slips (maybe) for transfers but that cannot be used for ecommerce

[disgruntledphd2]

> The biggest bank in the Netherlands at least requires the app to confirm payments

This is (I believe) part of PSD2, so basically all EZ banks require this now. Hilariously enough, they still have absurdly weak passwords but apparently they meet security requirements by forcing you to confirm stuff on your phone.

[derkades]

ING? You can choose to receive a hardware device instead of using the app.

[jolmg]

> Although they do still have these paper slips (maybe) for transfers

Are you describing checks?

[nmfisher]

Ubank in Australia just told me they’re retiring their website in a few months, the app will be the only way to access your account. It’s digital only, so no real world branches either.

[drnick1]

This would be enough of a reason for me to immediately move all my savings to another bank. No website, no business.

[jolmg]

> the app will be the only way to access your account

Maybe also on the ATMs of other banks?

[londons_explore]

Many banks in Europe are app-only and don't allow you to log in with a web browser.

[ahartmetz]

In Germany at least, that's only the ones that advertise being an "app bank". It's the last thing that I want, but they exist.

[WD-42]

Yikes. That sounds tough.

[p0w3n3d]

Ubuntu touch has an Android compatibility layer

[IshKebab]

Yeah... Does it support WhatsApp? If not that's a deal-breaker in most of the world.

[ronsor]

Most of the world loves being shackled by a Meta product for some reason. The allegiance to WhatsApp is mindbending.

[XorNot]

Signal desperately needs "Signal for Business".

Sell a way for businesses to send trusted communications to their customers in sensitive industries - i.e. healthcare would be a big one.

They need both an actual revenue stream, but also that sort of professional messaging can drive adoption which ultimately furthers the Signal mission.

Plus all those things could desperately use good secure messaging systems.

[stavros]

Huh, that wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

[bobsmooth]

WhatsApp works with your phone number. If you have someone's number, you have their WhatsApp. And since basic text messaging is terrible and RCS still isn't universal, WhatsApp is used.

[IshKebab]

Because WhatsApp is really good, much better than SMS, and everybody uses it.

Meta only bought it after it was already the de facto standard. And to be fair they are only just starting to ruin it after quite a few years. So I would say the world made a pretty good decision there.

[pdntspa]

Free unlimited global text messaging in a time when people with very low incomes dealt with very low limits or per-message fees.

Much of the love was built before Facebook took it over.

[RealStickman_]

Moving to an open operating system and improving existing Android emulation is the first step. Once we have enough people on our alternative system, native apps can follow.

[xandrius]

Using Waydroid, you can run many/most Android apps unmodified.

So, yes, it's possible :)

[fsflover]

Ubuntu touch has a locked-down filesystem, like Android does. Mobian, PureOS and postmarketOS behave much more like regular GNU/Linux.

[smm11]

Not a lot of life left in Pixel 3 phones.

[Fergusonb]

I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news.

Sideloading was the killer feature for me as well.

[drnick1]

> I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news.

And guess what, sideloading has never been allowed on iPhones.

So you just went from bad to worse. The only rational option for tech-minded people nowadays is to buy a device that supports Lineage or Graphene (ironically Pixels are good for this) and to replace the stock OS.

[strix_varius]

Well no, the iPhone has niceties that Android lacks (as evidenced by its total market dominance for markets who can afford Apple devices). Lots of engineers use Android phones, but the C-suite invariably uses iPhones.

So if the reason you're choosing Android over iOS is freedom and flexibility, once that's gone, why not choose slickness, speed, battery-life, photo quality, and an integrated experience?

[drnick1]

> the C-suite invariably uses iPhones.

Hard to see that as a plus.

I have owned iPhones in the past (and still have a couple of old models collecting dust in a drawer), and I don't think they are in any way more refined than my Pixel 9 running Graphene. Most importantly, it is immune to arbitrary restrictions like sideloading bans or government-mandated spyware (aka Chat Control in Europe).

[disgruntledphd2]

> (as evidenced by its total market dominance for markets who can afford Apple devices)

This is only true in English speaking markets, the rich countries of Western Europe are much more Android heavy.

[porridgeraisin]

> battery life

Eh? I have a 6000mah Android. Everyone with an iPhone that I know struggles to get half the battery life I get.

[gdulli]

Then you'd be rewarding the company that pioneered and normalized taking away these rights. The next rights you'll lose will probably originate on Apple again years before Google takes them away too.

[rs186]

It doesn't make any difference anyway, does it?

Then I might as well treat myself with better hardware & ecosystem.

[ethbr1]

Better hardware, yes.

But you'll be reminded quickly how comparatively shit Apple's software is.

Aka the litany of "Oh, yeah, everyone knows that's broken but just deals with it, because there's no way to fix issues on a closed platform other than {wait for Apple}."

[rs186]

I will take Apple's software over Samsung's ad infested, buggy & ugly software any day.

[abenga]

There are quite a few more Android phone makers than Samsung.

[Nursie]

What are all these things that are broken?

The only thing I can think of that's worse on iOS is that you're forced to use safari or another skin on webkit rather than true alternative browsers. Everything else works better thatn android AFAICT, and integrates amazingly with MacOS.

[ethbr1]

There being a different keyboard with a period next to space that's only used for address bars.

Tapback emoji choice being uneditable.

There's a lot of little annoyances that on Android can be user-fixed, but on iOS it's just... wait and hope.

[Nursie]

Honestly, now you mention it, space bar/period thing is annoying :)

I’m always searching for things with unnecessary dots in them, and I’d forgotten about the keyboard options on Android.

[blibble]

my iphone doesn't reboot every time I try to take a picture or make a phone call (on every pixel I've had)

android sucks, but it was open

now it just sucks

[BenjiWiebe]

How many pixels have you had that reboot when you take a picture or make a phone call?

My pixels haven't done that (yet anyways).

[blibble]

4

[dangus]

I think this isn’t true at all, before the iPhone existed cellular carriers controlled software on consumer phones.

Remember when GPS navigation was a $5/month app that was a cellular plan addon?

[ptx]

Only phones sold by carriers were controlled by carriers. You could easily (in Europe at least) buy an unlocked phone and put in a SIM from any carrier of your choice. You could then easily install (i.e. "sideload") Java apps from anywhere you wanted, e.g. from a storage card or over Bluetooth, although some permissions were restricted unless you bought an expensive code-signing certificate.

[dangus]

As I recall, in the US at the time the best networks were CDMA and had more strict device activation requirements, especially Verizon.

[jadbox]

You can still install apps outside the play store, but the developer does need to verify their signing information. Effectively this means that any app you install must have a paper trail to the originating developer, even if its not on the app store. On one hand, I can see the need for this to track down virus creators, but on the other, it provides Google transparency and control over side loaded app. It IS a concerning move, but currently this is far from 'killing' non-appstore apps for most of the market.

[AdmiralAsshat]

So let's pick a random example app that might be popular on F-Droid today. Oh, I dunno...newpipe.

Given that Google both owns Android/Google Play Store and YouTube: what do you think they would do with the developer information of someone who makes an app that skirts their ad-model for YouTube?

[ACCount37]

I can't help but feel that this move is aimed specifically at ReVanced.

The "security" wording is the usual corpospeak - you can always trust "security" to mean "the security of our business model, of course, why are you asking?"

[constantcrying]

Exactly. I don't think Google is doing this so that people don't install some random FOSS alternatives through F-Droid.

Things like Newpipe seems much more of a target, especially if you want to take legal action. More so than stopping users, this gives Google fat more leverage about what Apps can exist. If they ever want to stop Newpipe a serious lawsuit against whoever signed the APK seems like an effective way to shut down the whole project. Certainly more effective then a constant battle between constraining them and them finding ways to circumvent the constraints.

[GeekyBear]

Google is following the same game plan we saw when they decided that the full version of uBlock Origin (the version that is still effective on YouTube) should no longer be allowed within their browser monopoly.

The fact that there was a temporary workaround didn't change the endgame.

It's just there to boil the frog more slowly and keep you from hopping out of the pot.

It's the same game plan Microsoft used to force users to use an online Microsoft account to log onto their local computer.

Temporary workarounds are not the same thing as publicly abandoning the policy.

[southernplaces7]

Curiously, for me Ublock light works just as well after I was essentially forced to switch. I could still get the original to function, but with every random chrome update, the thing would be deactivated, obviously as "insecure".

[detectivestory]

From a quick glance at /r/GooglePlayDeveloper/ it looks like Google is just as interested in killing playstore apps! It seems that they only want to support the existing larger apps now. I think they are giving a clear message to developers that its not really worth developing for that platform anymore. I think we will all agree that the playstore needed a purge but they seem to be making it impossible for any new solo devs at this point.

[instagib]

I thought most devs didn’t want to develop on android because IOS devs made more income per user (0) and spent more on in app purchases. Android does well with ad supported apps. Paid apps have had issues with piracy also.

“In 2024, the App Store made $103.4 billion to Google Play’s $46.7 billion.”

0 https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-data-report/

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

To wit, there is only one business playbook with two strategies: When you are weak, make friends. When you are strong, make war.

Android used to be weak against iPhone and needed to cooperate, so they allowed more apps in to grow the userbase. Now that they're big and strong, they don't need allies, so they start kicking out everyone who isn't making them money.

Every "enshittified" service does it - Imgur, Reddit, whatever. Everyone selling $10 bills for $9 does it. Microsoft did it. They took a step backwards by buying GitHub, when they realized they were totally blowing it on cloud. But now that they have users stuck on GitHub and VS Code, they're defecting again.

[jadbox]

I have no idea what this means. How does this change "kill playstore apps"?

[andrewl-hn]

Not related to this particular news item, but several high-profile App developers are either killing their apps on Android entirely (like iA Writer) or removing features due to Google tightening submission requirements and increasing costs for apps that integrate with their services.

[detectivestory]

not the change mentioned in the news link. I was referring to what people are discussing over on the reddit play store sub. Google are terminating dev accounts without giving any reasons or warnings. I'm sure most, if not all terminations have have some element of justification but ultimately it means that Google seem pretty happy to terminate any dev account without letting the developer know why. And to make things worse, that developer is forever banned from ever publishing any content on the playstore for life. They cannot make a new account. Their career in android app development can be destroyed in an instant. Most terminations seem to be handled by bots... and to rub salt in the wound, Google only responds to appeals... using more bots. That is according to what the community has been saying at least. I'm sure they know what they are doing and one thing we all know is that Google actually IS big enough not to fail. But it does seem like the right thing to at least make new developers more aware of the risks. And it is obviously a very stressful time for anyone who is actually making a living off an android app.

[JohnFen]

> currently this is far from 'killing' non-appstore apps for most of the market.

It means that Android is no longer suitable for my own private dev projects.

[gabrielhidasy]

If it's for your own projects, for yourself only, ADB still works without this verification.

[JohnFen]

True, although using adb requires the use of the usb port, which for some of my projects is highly impractical.

Also, with this move, Google has made it very clear that they don't want people to have any real control over their machines -- so I'm not inclined to think that using adb to work around the problem will always be possible.

It's fine, though. My hobby projects will continue into the future, just probably without using Android.

[spogbiper]

I didn't think a usb port was required since the introduction of wifi adb?

https://www.androidpolice.com/use-wireless-adb-android-phone...

[alex7o]

I know that this is how shizuku (0) does it and it is required anyway if you want to install multi apk applications so stiff won't change for most people then?

(0): https://shizuku.rikka.app/

[JohnFen]

Ah, I didn't know this was a thing. Thank you!

[preisschild]

You can use GrapheneOS or LineageOS without the Google rootkit and continue installing any apps you want

[erinnh]

Considering both Graphene and Lineage have been complaining about google making development harder and harder for how long will that be a possibility?

[CommanderData]

Play Store has an attestation API, Google could simply make it harder to run banking apps and similar if you run GrapheneOS. Something like requiring banking apps to use a stricter mode. GrapheneOS even mentions it's not easy spoofing this entirely as it change often on the FAQ page.

There's only so much you can do as a maintainer of a custom OS like Graphene before its too hard to maintain. I don't think there's enough coming in by way of donations to play catch-up.

Need legislation quick. But I suspect the EU doesn't want side loading either in the grand scheme of surveillance.

[preisschild]

> Google could simply make it harder to run banking apps and similar if you run GrapheneOS

Thats the Banks fault then. I complained to mine and they removed the safetynet check / let you skip it.

[JohnFen]

My devices are not supported by either of those, sadly.

[duskdozer]

sure. now. why do you think google won't choose a way to destroy them in the near future?

[jhasse]

Well with that thinking you can't use an OS by any corparation???

[preisschild]

Its open source and thus can be forked.

[msh]

It also makes it easy for google to blacklist a developer, if for example the trump administration don’t like them (the same way apple removing apps documenting ICE).

[pkulak]

And basically every corporation with any business in the US has proven _more_ than willing to instantly capitulate to any demand made by the administration.

[blaze33]

Pretty sure virus creators could just pick a real ID leaked by the "adult only logins" shenanigans, whereas legit app developers probably wouldn't want to commit identity fraud.

[gjsman-1000]

If it gets that bad; Google can do what they already do with business listings - send a letter to the physical address matching the ID, containing a code, which then must be entered into the online portal.

Do that + identity check = bans for virus makers are not easily evaded, regardless of where they live.

[nosianu]

That physical address will be useless, and probably easily worked around, in many if not most countries. Expecting Google to be able to use that address together with the law is a pretty US-centric expectation. I don't think most virus creators would be impacted, especially not the ones that are part of professional (criminal or government) organizations.

[thayne]

Even in the US, it won't always work. If you moved in the past few years, the address on your ID will be wrong.

[JetSpiegel]

Will they send letters to sanctioned countries? What about a PO box, or a remailer service?

[voxl]

Can you imagine what you're suggesting for a Linux machine? It's absurd. My box my rules, I'll run any damn code I please.

[omnimus]

Yeah... no. This is normal with desktop computers. Let's stop handholding people. If I trust the source, I trust the domain... I want to be able to install app from its source.

Googles/Apples argument would have been much stronger if their stores managed to not allow scams/malware/bad apps to their store but this is not the case. They want to have the full control without having the full responsibility. It's just powergrab.

[JohnTHaller]

It's normal for Windows and *nix, not for modern macOS which has big limitations on unsigned apps requiring command line and control panel shenanigans.

[raw_anon_1111]

And you are completely ignoring viruses, ransomware, keyloggers, the 50 toolbars etc that has been the staple of Windows and before that DOS for over 40 years.

Scam apps are rife in the iOS App Store. But what they can’t do easily install viruses that affect anything out of its sandbox, keyloggers, etc

[getpokedagain]

You are missing the part where the OS provider is the virus and keylogger. Unless of course you feel it reasonable that google and apple datamine everything you type via their software keyboard[0] or reading the contents of your notifications via play services[1].

0 - https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/16046-google-keyboard-w-net... 1 - https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/sandboxed-google-play-pr...

[raw_anon_1111]

You mean if you run an OS made by a company whose whole profit model is based on tracking users so they can advertise to you is invading your privacy?

[omnimus]

Sandboxing isn't feature dependent on Apple being a big curator is it? These are orthogonal but not the same issues. I've never said that PCs don't have viruses or that it isn't a problem, only that I should be able to install software from developer I trust if I want to.

I agree let's have sandboxed app instalations on platforms. Flatpak is already going this way. But it looks like big players Microsoft,Apple and Google are gatekeeping app sandboxing behind their stores instead of allowing people/devs to use sandboxing directly.

[raw_anon_1111]

And then there will still be complaints about Google limiting what apps can do and take away “your freedom”. What happens when a third party app wants to be able to read in other apps internal storage to create a back up solution like iCloud? Should that be allowed? What about if they want to create an app that autocompletes what you type when working in another app requiring key logger like capabilities?

[heavyset_go]

What part of "I should be able to install software from developer I trust if I want to" was hard to understand?

[xigoi]

The toolbars don’t just magically appear there. They are the product of a technically illiterate user.

[raw_anon_1111]

Yes because technically literate users shouldn’t have trusted mainstream companies to not install bundle ware back in the Day? They shouldn’t have trusted Zoom not to install a web server on Macs surreptitiously that caused a vulnerability? They shouldn’t have searched Google for printer drivers not knowing that it was a fake printer driver? They shouldn’t have trusted Facebook when they installed VPN software that tracked all of their traffic from any app?

Is that really your answer? To make the phone ecosystem as fraught as Windows PCs for the average user? How is they worked out for PC users since the 80s?

[orangecat]

How is they worked out for PC users since the 80s?

Just to be clear, are you claiming that we would be better off if PC hardware and OS vendors had the level of control that smartphone vendors do today?

[Wowfunhappy]

Technically illiterate users should leave the default security settings enabled.

In the modern day, I actually think this mostly works? Are you aware of instances where normies installed Windows malware because they purposefully disabled Windows Defender?

Everyone always talks about the "Dancing Bunnies Problem" but I'm not convinced it's actually a thing.

[close04]

> need for this to track down virus creators

I think they’re just going to track down a random person in a random country who put their name down in exchange for a modest sum of money. That’s if there’s even a real person at the other end. Do you really think that malware creators will stumble on this?

This has to be about controlling apps that are inconvenient to Google. Those that are used to bypass Google’s control and hits their ad revenue or data collection efforts.

[rpdillon]

It's killing F-Droid, which is the only place I want to sideload from.

[j45]

It makes sense for average users to have identifiable traceability.

Developers, and power users often pre-date these kinds of smartphones.

[Buttons840]

Switching to iPhone will make it even more obvious there is an unhealthy monopoly, so that's nice. If there's no good reason to choose Android, why not?

[goku12]

What we really need is a fair alternative to both these abuse platforms. Choosing an unfamiliar abuse over a familiar abuse isn't exactly the smartest move. The switch over to a free(dom) platform like plain Linux must happen even if we have to make some temporary sacrifices like the loss of mobile banking facilities. It can't be worse than using a feature phone, can it? The app ecosystem will eventually attain parity if the platform achieves popularity.

[jhasse]

Multiple alternatives already exists. Or how do you define "fair"?

[goku12]

Fair as in fairness. An alternative that plays fairly with me by respecting my rights as a consumer. And yes, I agree that there are multiple alternatives. The problem is that they are not viable yet. Most of them are buggy and missing crucial features. Even if those were resolved, we'll still have holdouts like banking apps, transportation apps, shopping apps, etc that rely on platform attestation and geolocking (worthless and harmful features, IMO). The question is, how do we take them mainstream? Their situation is like those of the Linux and the BSDs of the late 90s till 2010. The platforms are not popular enough to garner attention and support from service providers.

The only solution to this market share problem is for a bunch of us to just dive right in by adopting them, put up with all the inconveniences for a while (a long while), convince everyone we can to adopt it by pretending that it's the cool new trend and then complain to every organization, agency and government that they are discriminating against us by not supporting our platform. At some point, everyone will take it up. Hopefully!

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

"If I can't do this anymore..."

How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented

Non-updated versions of Android running non-updated versions of sideloaded apps will not have the restriction

Another example of how not every "update" is for "security" and "updates" should be optional

The computer owner chooses one version of an operating system, e.g., "I chose Android because I can sideload any app", but by allowing automatic updates, without reviewing them first, the computer owner agrees to let the operating system vendor change the software remotely to anything the vendor chooses. The computer owner goes along with whatever the vendor decides, letting the vendor take them for a ride

If the operating system gets _worse_ in the opinion of the computer owner, if it fails to meet their needs, e.g., "sideloading", then that's too bad. The computer owner chose one version of Android, but by subscribing to "automatic updates" they effectively chose all future versions as well

This is why I prefer BSD UNIX-like operating system projects where I can choose to update or not to update. Unlike the hypothetical Android user, the project does not decide for me

HN replies may try to draw attention to "security" and away from "sideloading restriction". However there is no option to accept "security updates" while rejecting "sideloading restriction updates". According to the so-called "tech" companies that conduct data collection and surveillance as a "business model" through free, auto-updated software, every update, no matter what it contains, is deemed essential and critical for "security"

Online commentators seem to agree that the computer owner should have the choice to install or not install _any_ software outside the "app store", so-called "sideloading". Perhaps this freedom to choose whether to install or not install software should also apply to operating system "updates"

[alex23478]

> How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented

Google has the Google Play Services, which can be remotely updated via the Play Store, as has been done for the COVID exposure notification system [0]. Google's Play Protect already hooks into the installation process and could be updated to enforce the signatures.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_Notification

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

What happens if the computer owner disables Google Play Services along with the Play Store and keeps the phone offline

(Own experients conducted over the years make this a "rhetorical question" meaning I already know the answer)

Not every app requires Play Services and internet access

(Online commentators sometimes try to argue that all apps, even offlines ones, "require" Play Services otherwise they cannot be updated automatically, highlighting the significance of "automatic updates" in steering debates about Android. Own experiments show that many if not most apps work fine without Play Services and can be updated manually if desired)

Not every phone is used for banking or other "government services"

(For example, some owners have mulltiple phones. Some owners may have phones with older versions of mobile OS that may be used for experiments)

Not every computer owner is the same

(For example, most phone owners do not install any apps at all. Of those that do, most use "app stores", not so-called "sideloading")

HN replies are likely to invoke "security" as a retort to any suggestion of decision-making and control being placed with the computer owner

[SpaceNugget]

Automatic updates are pretty unrelated. Google can just release an updated version of google play services or a device verification API and everyone's banking/government ID apps will stop working until you manually update anyway. They have a pretty big stick to whack you over the head with if you don't update to the new version "for security"

[blurbleblurble]

I might as well get a landline/dumbphone and a small linux tablet.

[FranzFerdiNaN]

Maybe it’s because I’m European but I’ve never understood what iMessage even is or what it offers above either sms or WhatsApp/signal. And I’ve used an iPhone for the past 15 years.

[rkomorn]

For me, mainly: no international cost, no metered cost (other than data), no extra app like WhatsApp to install (but other party needs iOS).

Edit: that said, nowadays, maybe because I'm back in the EU, I use WhatsApp way more often than iMessage.

[BenjiWiebe]

It is easier, however, to install WhatsApp then to switch from Android to iOS.

[rkomorn]

Of course. iMessage is just a convenience when someone else has an iPhone.

[observationist]

Refuse to participate in either walled garden.

There are no good reasons left to use either platform - you're basically paying an arm and a leg to rent a device whose primary purpose is to usurp your attention and plunder your wallet at every possible opportunity.

Use and encourage your circle to use Signal, so you're not limited to any given platform, or the political or ideological whims of the gardenmeisters.

Google has gone full enshittified with this move, might as well move as far and as fast away from all the shit if you're technically capable, introduce whatever pressure you can to signal that there's a desperate need in the smartphone market for something clean and honest.

[musictubes]

“There are no good reasons” really? One of my favorite things about iOS/ipados is the incredible selection of music creation apps. My iPad is loaded with synths, sequencers, and effects. AUM in particular is an amazing program for live performances mixing both software and hardware using a touch interface.

Many, but not all, of the programs I use on iPad are also available on Mac and Windows at much higher prices. That alone is reason enough to use a iPad. Most of these apps can be run on the least expensive iPad and/or older ones.

Like it or not, computing appliances have led to really good software markets. The “clean and honest” software markets are either much more expensive or don’t exist at all. The optimist in me is hoping that Android losing some freedom might lead to higher quality software and some actual competition to Apple.

[hahn-kev]

Probably the only real benefit now is Firefox/alt browsers

[WD-42]

Firefox with UBO is still a huge win. But Orion browser is making progress. At this point I just don’t see a reason to go android anymore. If I have to be part of a walled garden I may as well choose the nicer one.

[drnick1]

For me the main reason to stick to FOSS Android ROMs (over a Linux phone) is that you retain compatibility with thousands of very good FOSS and non-FOSS apps. There is Waydroid, and it works very well, but if you are primarily running Android apps, an Android device makes more sense.

[WD-42]

Isn't the Android rom scene in shambles? What phone would you have to buy now to be able to even run decent a decent custom ROM?

[jhasse]

No. One of these: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/

[drnick1]

Graphene and Lineage work great on Pixel 9s.

[treyd]

You could also use a thirdparty ROM.

[colordrops]

How long until AOSP deviates so much from features in 3rd party ROMs that it becomes infeasible to for amateur developers to maintain them?

[treyd]

AOSP is used in many contexts like embedded devices where somehow enshackling it would screw up Google's self-interest in other market areas (like ensuring there is a wider population of Android developers).

But regardless, thirdparty ROMs will continue to exist regardless of how much effort it takes because the demand exists and will not merely dissipate.

[colordrops]

Demand exists for a lot of things that don't exist. There's no technical reason that the internet couldn't have stayed mostly decentralized, with everyone hosting a node at their house, controlling their own data and feeds, with an experience not much different from current services and social media, and people would absolutely want this if the experience was reliable and had good UX. But so much effort has been shunted to centralized services that it never materialized. The demand is there, I've asked many people. Just one counterexample.

I'm working on a project myself but it's taking forever considering the large scope. Getting close to having it ready for technical individuals to try it out.

https://homefree.host

[wiether]

And in the EU you can install apps outside of the AppStore on your iPhone!

[gumby271]

But not outside of Apple's control, they have a very similar mechanism to this verification process with 3rd party app stores.

[Croak]

Thats a recent addition; hope consumer protection laws around the world become better.

[colordrops]

It's ironic that they pull this bullshit while at the same time putting out their "Vanilla Pro" ad mocking Apple's ecosystem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWykPvftfg

[63stack]

Same, I'm tempted to call android just a shittier iPhone now

[Aachen]

What part of cheaper, better, and open source is shittier exactly?

[array_key_first]

1. Not cheaper.

2. I think it's better, I like the UX but that's subjective.

3. Not open source. AOSP is open source. Android is not open source.

[stronglikedan]

It's certainly cheaper when you compare phones with like specs.

[dangus]

Not by much these days. The Pixel 10 actually gives you half the storage as the iPhone 17 at the same price.

The only Android phones that are significantly cheaper than equivalent iPhone tend to come with some kind of compromise (and don’t forget that Apple’s phones start at $600 - the iPhone 16e exists).

[Aachen]

Storage needn't be expensive. Any 150€ phone will let you put in a 2TB sdcard. It's specifically the premium brand phones that squeeze you out

The specs that you can't just plug and play are a bit more relevant to look at I'd say

[vbezhenar]

Try Xiaomi.

[array_key_first]

Ehh, I'm unconvinced. A lot of these cheapo Android phones have bizarre restrictions and really short lifespans. A used iPhone might last longer and therefore be cheaper in the long run.

[Rohansi]

You can definitely get cheaper Android phones than an iPhone. There will be compromises but it will be cheaper. Many people are fine with a $200 or less phone.

[Aachen]

1: citation needed

2: yeah okay with that logic "I just subjectively feel that way", there's no point having a conversation

3: Android is short for AOSP. You're probably thinking of things like Google Play or OneUI?

[array_key_first]

> citation needed

Most android flagships are about the price of iPhones.

> Android is short for AOSP.

This actually made me laugh out loud.

Uh, no. AOSP is a showcase project which currently cannot run on any phones produced on Earth.

Android is the most popular mobile operating system.

AOSP does not include code to run almost any viable hardware and also does not include code necessary to run android applications. Everything that is Google play services is not in AOSP.

Bear in mind Google play services isn't the Google play store. It's basic device functionality, like cellular service and GPS.

[pkulak]

> What part of cheaper

The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10

> better

But the iPhone 17 has better hardware features, like UWB, better cameras, and a _far_ faster CPU.

> open source

Only if you install Graphene, and then never install anything that requires Google Play Services, which is basically every commercial app.

[terminalshort]

In terms of cameras, my pixel takes way better pictures than any iphone, and people I know with iphones (which is basically everyone) admit it.

[krabizzwainch]

Mine was better until Google kept forcing AI sharpening and making things look worse.

[terminalshort]

Which pixel do you have? I have the 9, and I don't seem to have that problem.

[jerojero]

I have an 8 pro.

A month or so ago I went to NYC, I visited some of the museums.

Although I managed to get some great pictures, framing wise and sharpness wise. The color resolution was absolutely ridiculously bad.

I couldn't figure out a way in that moment to fix the issue, but seriously, the colors were so far off it kinda ruined this phone for me.

My friend had an iphone, we took the same pictures of the same paintings and his photos looked much closer to life than mine. Huge disappointment.

In the iphone its very easy to shoot raw and the camera app has a lot of very good intuitive controls. Not to even begin talking about video.

At some point I think Google did make really good photography phones but it seems to me like they've basically stopped trying to stay ahead of the competition whereas apple is always trying to improve. Thats my impression anyway.

[blackbear_]

GOS allows you to install and use apps from the Play Store and the vast majority of them works flawlessly.

[brailsafe]

> The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10

I mean, flagship vs flagship idk if one has ever been significantly cheaper, but I've never been in the market for those either. It's very easy to get a higher priced, more interesting, highly specced Android phone. Both iPhones and flagship android phones are way too expensive for what they are capable of compared to any of their own prior generations of themselves, if you ignore tech specs and consider the tangible end-user functionality, but even still.

I've always bought the phone that suits me in the moment, have never budgeted higher than $600CAD, and have simply never been interested in iPhones beyond what used to be nice industrial design. For that, last time I got a brand new Pixel 7 on sale, Pixel 4a, Nexus 5 etc.. and they've all done what I needed and usually came close to matching the fancier versions in some ways in the same year's lineup.

Usually though I have breadth of options to pick from across a range of brands that I can choose between based on whatever the hell I prefer. iPhones are just iPhones, bigger or smaller, more expensive or cheaper, big camera plateau or small, and that's all fine too.

The sideloading aspect for me and a better sense of control is absolutely a component in that preference, and I'll have to consider that going forward, but I'd sooner just dial back my dependence on phones in general than switch to an iPhone.

[akimbostrawman]

>requires Google Play Services, which is basically every commercial app.

Not my experience at all. Only some banking apps or apps that otherwise hard depend on play services feature like google pay. GrapheneOS offer isolated unprivileged sandboxed Google play services for those.

[rangestransform]

> and a _far_ faster CPU.

No longer true with the newest chip that Mediatek cooked up, ARM licensed cores like C1 are catching up rapidly with Apple CPUs (or maybe Apple has hit the limit of their current design philosophy)

[xigoi]

> The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10

Too bad there aren’t any other Android phones…

[constantcrying]

Over the last years Android has gotten increasingly worse, which is something you just have to expect from a Google product.

It is still unbelievable to me that Google is shipping a product which takes 10 seconds to show anything when I search through my phones settings. What are they doing?

>open source

Sure. If you buy the right phone you get some open source components. Of course half the Android companies are trying to funnel you into their proprietary ecosystem as well. The rest just wants you to use Google's proprietary ecosystem.

[surajrmal]

Everything in settings loads near instantly for me including search. What exactly has gotten worse with Android recently?

[xp84]

> takes 10 seconds to show anything when I search through my phones settings

Ah, I see ol' Google's been shamelessly copying Apple again.

Unrelated but related to embarrassingly-bad search: On my iPhone, I have a Hacker News reader app called Octal. Now when I search the phone itself for "octal" (like I do to launch most apps), sometimes the only result found is... the Octal entry under Settings (where iOS sticks the permission-granting interface for notifications, location, etc.) Can't find the app itself. Just the settings for it.

[realusername]

Cheaper for sure, better maybe but open source certainly not, AOSP doesn't run on a single device on earth, not even the emulators.

[floxy]

I'm out of the loop on this. What is Graphene doing?

https://grapheneos.org/features

>GrapheneOS is a private and secure mobile operating system with great functionality and usability. It starts from the strong baseline of the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) and takes great care to avoid increasing attack surface or hurting the strong security model.

[realusername]

They are doing it like everybody else, they have their own system apps (because they got kind of unmaintainted by Google in AOSP since Android 12), they add drivers from the pixel device tree and then they add their security patches.

If you would put AOSP on a Pixel, it wouldn't even boot and if you managed to get it to boot, the apps would be unusable.

[brazukadev]

> Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android

You still can do that with PWAs in Android. Let's see for how long.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

Do you have a single friend who isn't a programmer who has installed a PWA in the last two years?

[jezek2]

Game streaming services like GeForce Now, Xbox Live, Amazon Luna use PWAs for iOS/iPad support, used by a lot of ordinary users. They're not in AppStore because of incompatibility with Apple rules.

[schlauerfox]

I use 3CX VOIP app as a PWA daily, I'm just an IT worker.

[_imnothere]

> PWAs

And I wonder when can we stop lying to ourselves pretending "web"-apps are real (native) apps?

[llbbdd]

Why?

[pooyamo]

Can you create and run a service that starts when phone is turned on, with a PWA app? Usecase is a backup daemon.

[claytongulick]

Does every app need to do this?

I make lots of "real" healthcare apps that are PWAs.

Much better installation and user experience, no dev cert nonsense, brain dead simple updates, no app store, etc...

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

Backup, file sync, and chat... very common and important use cases. Not everything can start with a user request.

[koolala]

There is a big difference between Websites and Applications. Websites are a smaller subset of capabilities.

[JohnTHaller]

You can still side-load signed apps. It's a similar limitation to macOS which won't let you run apps that Apple hasn't signed without command line or control panel shenanigans. Compared to iOS, Android still has the advantage of installing your own full browser (like Firefox) with full-fat ad blocking (uBlock Origin, not Lite). iOS is Safari-only right now though, in theory, some alternative engines may be available in Europe later.

[TuringTest]

If they need to be signed by Google, that's not side loading by definition; it's using an alternate Google channel.

[koolala]

What your describing isn't "side-loading". Doing that means the apps go through Google's chain of control. Please don't let them redefine the word.

[ptrl600]

With macOS you run "sudo spctl --master disable", and then you can run whatever you want without sending PII to Apple. Is that the case with the new Android stuff?

[jezek2]

MacOS can run unsigned apps with GateKeeper active, no need to disable it. Attempt to run the app, then go into security settings, scroll down and click on "Open anyway". And before Sequoia a right click -> Open was sufficient.

On M1+ devices it might also need "ad-hoc signing" if the developer hasn't done it (not required for Intel binaries). This is not a true signing, it just inserts a cryptographic checksum into the binary, no actual signing is involved.

[flawn]

No, the closest would be rooting your phone but then you can't use banking apps properly (there are loopholes to spoof integrity but they are slowly coming to an end as verification runs on TEE)

[jhasse]

Couldn't you install with adb without rooting?

[jhasse]

We don't know yet. At the moment side-loading still works without restrictions.

[lieks]

You can install full uBlock Origin in the Orion browser, on iOS. It also has decent built-in ad blocking (though uBlock Origin is still better).

I had been thinking for a long time to switch to Android (GrapheneOS, probably) when my current iPhone 13 dies, but this whole thing with "sideloading" on Android is making me reconsider. If I can't have the freedom I want either way, might as well get longer support, polished animation and better default privacy (though I still need to opt-out of a bunch of stuff).

[palata]

Well GrapheneOS is not Google-certified, so it is not impacted by this :-).

[bitwize]

AOSP releases are going to stop (or become late and cursory like Darwin releases), and new Pixels will not be able to run non-Google-certified operating systems :)

[Pfhortune]

> and new Pixels will not be able to run non-Google-certified operating systems :)

I haven't heard about this. Source?

I think there has been much _speculation_ around this, but no proof that I am aware of.

[lieks]

They have already shown themselves to be both able and willing. Hopefully the backlash from this current decision will delay their plans long enough for GrapheneOS, Lineage and others to figure out how to work around it somehow, which is why I'm eagerly watching where this is going.

[bitwize]

I can't confirm this yet but with Google refusing to provide device trees for new Pixels things definitely look headed that way; they're at least starting to make installing an alternate OS difficult. The Graphene devs are trying to set things up with a handset manufacturer to ship a GrapheneOS phone, but good luck connecting that thing to a US carrier (who allowlist handsets and often limit the allowlist to models they sell directly).

[whycome]

How did Orion sidestep the safari WebKit requirements?

[lieks]

They didn't. They implemented the WebExtensions API for WebKit. It's not complete (e.g. Stylus doesn't work yet), but it's enough to run uBlock Origin.

[cortesoft]

> It's a similar limitation to macOS which won't let you run apps that Apple hasn't signed without command line or control panel shenanigans

Can you do something similar to load unsigned apps on Android?

[_ea1k]

Agreed. While I do not like this move, ti is weird to me how far people are going in their criticism.

The perfect should not be the enemy of the good.

[cnity]

"The perfect should not be the enemy of the good" is the wrong analogy here. It's more like "death by a thousand cuts". Limitations on free computer usage are like a ratcheting mechanism: they mostly go in one direction.